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Post by londonstuff on Jan 12, 2008 15:57:45 GMT
Sorry if this is a silly/easy to answer question, but here goes anyway! When a signal is on a red aspect, the trainstop thingy on the track floor is raised and when it goes green it lowers - easy enough so far. However, what is the mechanism for the signal to know that the train has gone past so that it turns back to red? While I'm on the subject, are there any books about signals, LU track layouts, etc? Thanks
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Post by c5 on Jan 12, 2008 16:06:32 GMT
Sorry if this is a silly/easy to answer question, but here goes anyway! When a signal is on a red aspect, the trainstop thingy on the track floor is raised and when it goes green it lowers - easy enough so far. However, what is the mechanism for the signal to know that the train has gone past so that it turns back to red? While I'm on the subject, are there any books about signals, LU track layouts, etc? Thanks It'll sound simple in the end ;D When the train passes the signal there is an Insulated Block Joint (if you dont know what that is, think of it as a circuit in the track) called a replacement blockjoint. The train's wheels create the circuit and return the signal to danger. The trainstop will then raise, until the signal is cleared again. Just to added that springs keep the train stop raised and compressed air forces the train stop down when required. That's why for a few seconds you often have a dual aspect. There are also "things!" in the trainstop that detect if it is broken. If it is that signal and the one before will stay at danger. Have a look here: www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/signals___signalling.htmlor there is a book called London Underground Operations by John Glover.
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Post by chrish on Jan 12, 2008 16:09:07 GMT
Sorry if this is a silly/easy to answer question, but here goes anyway! When a signal is on a red aspect, the trainstop thingy on the track floor is raised and when it goes green it lowers - easy enough so far. However, what is the mechanism for the signal to know that the train has gone past so that it turns back to red? While I'm on the subject, are there any books about signals, LU track layouts, etc? Thanks In the running rails there are insulated block joints (IBJs) just after signals, which separate the signaling sections. Simply enough, as the front axle passes over the associated IBJ, then the signal will return to danger. In the case of an automatic signal, when the rear axle of a train passes over the IBJ at the end of the signaling section, then signal turns green again. With semi-automatic signals, the signaler can then clear them after the rear axle is out of the section. Works similarly for repeater signals, only they use replacement block joint (RBJs) instead of IBJs.
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Post by chrish on Jan 12, 2008 16:12:06 GMT
Sorry if this is a silly/easy to answer question, but here goes anyway! When a signal is on a red aspect, the trainstop thingy on the track floor is raised and when it goes green it lowers - easy enough so far. However, what is the mechanism for the signal to know that the train has gone past so that it turns back to red? While I'm on the subject, are there any books about signals, LU track layouts, etc? Thanks It'll sound simple in the end ;D When the train passes the signal there is a replacement blockjoint (if you dont know what that is, think of it as a circuit in the track). The train's wheels create the circuit and return the signal to danger. The trainstop will then raise, until the signal is cleared again. Just to added that springs keep the train stop raised and compressed air forces the train stop down when required. That's why for a few seconds you often have a dual aspect. There are also "things!" in the trainstop that detect if it is broken. If it is that signal and the one before will stay at danger. You beat me to it... but you raise a question for me... am I right is what I have written above?! I am guessing you know more about this than I do... so IBJs for running signals, and RBJs for repeaters? Yes? I'd swear thats what I was taught up the school... having said that, I have purged a few brain cells since then
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Post by c5 on Jan 12, 2008 16:16:54 GMT
A IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) is just what the bit of plastic is called. It's used to "break" the track up into Track Circuits
A RBJ (Replacement Block Joint) is what it simply it's purpose (to replace a signal to danger after the passage of a train) and is excatly the same physically as any IBJ!
Now I can't remember how it works on the Bakerloo and other lines where they dont have Track Circuits!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2008 16:23:00 GMT
A IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) is just what the bit of plastic is called. It's used to "break" the track up into Track Circuits A RBJ (Replacement Block Joint) is what it simply it's purpose (to replace a signal to danger after the passage of a train) and is excatly the same physically as any IBJ! The replacement block joint is only there when you have an absolute overlap though.....at a risk of completely baffling the OP - sorry!
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Post by c5 on Jan 12, 2008 16:25:28 GMT
A IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) is just what the bit of plastic is called. It's used to "break" the track up into Track Circuits A RBJ (Replacement Block Joint) is what it simply it's purpose (to replace a signal to danger after the passage of a train) and is excatly the same physically as any IBJ! The replacement block joint is only there when you have an absolute overlap though.....at a risk of completely baffling the OP - sorry! Exactly!! ;D ;D ;D ;D It's like they tell you all the stuff up the "school" and you go out and it's different on each line too ;D ;D ;D
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 12, 2008 16:33:57 GMT
There is also (still?) a relay that is linked to the track circuit and it is this that is de-enegised by the passage of the train. I use a similar system on my model railway except a reed switch replaces the block joints!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2008 16:35:46 GMT
As everyone regurgitates little bits of what they learned about "the simple track circuit" ;D ;D
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 12, 2008 16:38:38 GMT
Trust me-it's only little bits too!
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 13, 2008 1:20:10 GMT
Well guys I don't think anyone here is 100%!
Where do I start? Firstly there are track circuits on all LU lines including the Bakerloo which has what are known as 'jointless' tracks. Some other lines have jointless tracks too.
Blockjoints come in several types including the Permali, the 666 Mk1, 666 Mk2, Plastic Bonded and the now very popular Benkler to name the more popular types but they all do exactly the same job.
A blockjoint is a blockjoint no matter where it is used and it is the way in which tracks are divided into track circuit sections on capacitor fed track circuits which are what are predominantly used across LU although this is changing and the Jubilee uses more than one type. The division in jointless tracks is achieved by the use of different frequency sensitive circuits on adjacent 'tracks'.
Each signal has what is known as a 'Limit of control' and an 'overlap'. The 'overlap' is the calculated distance required for the train to stop in an emergency if it should pass a signal at danger. The 'Limit of control' is the distance from a signal up to and including the overlap of the next signal. Thus there will always be at least two signals at danger between any two trains.
The track circuits in the 'Limit of control' each have a contact in the 'selection' of the signal relay, such that when all tracks in the selection are unoccupied and when the signal is selected it will energise the signal relay, lower the trainstop by operating a valve and passing air to overcome the return spring and also clear the signal.
In an automatic area the signal will automatically be selected when the trainstop has been proved to have come to the fully 'ON' position following the passage of the previous train. In a controlled area, in addition, the signal must also be selected by a signalman or by a programme machine or computer according to the timetable.
When a train passes a clear signal and 'drops' onto the replacing track circuit it breaks the selection causing the air which keeps the trainstop lowered to be expelled, thus allowing the arm to spring to the 'ON' position. The signal relay releasing also extinguishes the green and illuminates the red.
The trainstop is proved to have come to the fully 'ON' position by a proving circuit which requires the replacing track circuit to be unoccupied and the trainstop cannot be lowered again before this circuit has been completed. Should the trainstop fail to come to the fully 'ON' position then the replacing track will remain down as if occupied and prevent subsequent clearing of the signal should a track circuit or trainstop failure occur.
The above is the basis of both semi-automatic and automatic simple signal circuitry.
As the dual aspect is mentioned let me expalin that there are two paths to light the red, the normal path which relies upon the signal relay releasing and the alternate path relying upon the trainstop being in the 'ON' position thus if the signal is green and the trainstop valve fails or the air hose ruptures, the motor fails etc the red will be lit by the trainstop while the green remains lit giving a dual aspect.
The humble track circuit in whatever form, there are several types in use, and the basic signal selection circuit and are the building blocks of the entire line signalling system. Trainstops stood the test of time as they continue so to do in the safe and effective control of trains not just at LU but on other railways around the world such as the NYC Subway. These days as with all things there are new ways to ensure safety and the trainstop is being phased out but I think they'll be around for a few years yet.
There are books about railway signalling but LU signalling is rarely covered in any detail or at all, the only real source being the IRSE but the best place to learn is by getting a job in the industry.
Brian
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Post by metman on Jan 13, 2008 1:42:27 GMT
Ahh, that is why the platform repeaters at Moor Park (platforms 1&2 Fast service) show 'OFF' and 'ON' instead of Green and Yellow.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 13, 2008 5:58:24 GMT
There are books about railway signalling but LU signalling is rarely covered in any detail or at all, the only real source being the IRSE but the best place to learn is by getting a job in the industry. Brian There are two textbooks that directly refer to LU signalling, both have been published as IRSE 'green books' - rather than the 1980 book 'Railway Signalling' and its companion 'Railway Control Systems'. Both were published as part of a series on 'Route Control Systems' - I think the original was No 21 and the reprint was No 29. (There is someone asleep in my library at the moment so I can't check the references) - both these books have been republished in a combined volume recently. Sadly these books only really cover programme machine working and very basic 'V' frame interlocking (21 programme only, 29 computer control of same), they won't teach you the basics of trainstop checking relays and things like the 'alternate red' as quite rightly mentioned by Brian - the best thing to do is to check out Tubeprune's [1] excellent site and most of your signalling queries will be dealt with there. Of course you can ask silly questions here, as I do. ;D [1] www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/signalling.htm for starters.
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Post by c5 on Jan 13, 2008 7:54:56 GMT
Ahh, that is why the platform repeaters at Moor Park (platforms 1&2 Fast service) show 'OFF' and 'ON' instead of Green and Yellow. No. That is due to having NR trains operating over these lines and being a mult-aspect signalling area. A platform repeater could be confused with a main Stop signal. That is why Banner Repeaters and Lunar White (in place of Green) on Fog Repeaters are used. Off and On are also standard railway jargon for Signal Clear and At Danger, respectively.
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 13, 2008 10:41:45 GMT
Thanks guys - that's really helpful I like Tube prune's site - very clear
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 13, 2008 11:19:00 GMT
There are books about railway signalling but LU signalling is rarely covered in any detail or at all, the only real source being the IRSE but the best place to learn is by getting a job in the industry. Brian There are two textbooks that directly refer to LU signalling, both have been published as IRSE 'green books' - rather than the 1980 book 'Railway Signalling' and its companion 'Railway Control Systems'. Both were published as part of a series on 'Route Control Systems' - I think the original was No 21 and the reprint was No 29. (There is someone asleep in my library at the moment so I can't check the references) - both these books have been republished in a combined volume recently. Sadly these books only really cover programme machine working and very basic 'V' frame interlocking (21 programme only, 29 computer control of same), they won't teach you the basics of trainstop checking relays and things like the 'alternate red' as quite rightly mentioned by Brian - the best thing to do is to check out Tubeprune's [1] excellent site and most of your signalling queries will be dealt with there. Of course you can ask silly questions here, as I do. ;D [1] www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/signalling.htm for starters. I have 'Railway Signalling' , 'Railway Control Systems' and I read all the 'Green Books' in my early days at LT when the library at 55, Broadway existed in the late 1970s. In fact I still have the tracings I made of the drawings in the green books you mention, I visited the library at lunchtimes as and when I could until I had read them all. But there are really only two ways to learn the ins and outs of anything more than the basics because even if one knows and understands all the symbols in use and can read a circuit much requires additional knowledge in the way that electrical, mechanical and pneumatic equipment is physically linked in order to understand the action, interaction and timing of any giving circuit. This is particularly true of trainstops as I expect would have been realised from my brief description earlier in this thread and of course more so where points are involved. What are the two ways? The first is to enjoy a career as a signal lineman, one can't beat hands on experience which is the only way to cover the ground because even the 16 week training course didn't cover much more than basic automatic and controlled signalling and was geared to safety signalling failures and P Way operations i.e. ensuring the signalling did what it was supposed to after rerailing etc. The finer points of interlockings such as programme machines, computers, signal electronics, control systems and extant obsolete equipment etc as well as train describers and other matters are/were all subjects for on the job learning and self teaching. The other method was to get a job in the signal design office, this being the path taken by many LT apprentices usually after serving a year or two as a lineman but sometimes immediately following an apprenticeship. Again a lengthy training course was involved based around signalling principles upon which all railway signalling systems are built. I would've liked a job in the design office but despite the privations at times (not so much these days) as a lineman it was hard to beat the adrenalin rush from dealing with a safety signalling failure especially if it's in a tunnel or if it happens just as you're getting ready to book off! Brian
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Post by Tom on Jan 13, 2008 12:50:47 GMT
The other method was to get a job in the signal design office, this being the path taken by many LT apprentices usually after serving a year or two as a lineman but sometimes immediately following an apprenticeship. Again a lengthy training course was involved based around signalling principles upon which all railway signalling systems are built. I would've liked a job in the design office but despite the privations at times (not so much these days) as a lineman it was hard to beat the adrenalin rush from dealing with a safety signalling failure especially if it's in a tunnel or if it happens just as you're getting ready to book off! That was more or less the path I took. And I still miss the adrenaline rushes..!
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Post by Tom on Jan 13, 2008 12:54:44 GMT
Sorry if this is a silly/easy to answer question, but here goes anyway! When a signal is on a red aspect, the trainstop thingy on the track floor is raised and when it goes green it lowers - easy enough so far. However, what is the mechanism for the signal to know that the train has gone past so that it turns back to red? While I'm on the subject, are there any books about signals, LU track layouts, etc? Thanks It'll sound simple in the end ;D When the train passes the signal there is an Insulated Block Joint (if you dont know what that is, think of it as a circuit in the track) called a replacement blockjoint. (snip) or there is a book called London Underground Operations by John Glover. [Pedant Mode] The phrase Insulated Block Joint is a misnomer (as there is no such thing as a conductive blockjoint), and a an amalgamation of the terms 'blockjoint' and 'insulated rail joint' which are one and the same thing. As for John Glover's book... he knows so much that he thinks that stainless steel strips in sidings cause the track circuits to function via the additional pressure exerted on the railhead!
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 13, 2008 23:53:10 GMT
(snip) or there is a book called London Underground Operations by John Glover. [Pedant Mode] As for John Glover's book... he knows so much that he thinks that stainless steel strips in sidings cause the track circuits to function via the additional pressure exerted on the railhead! He doesn't actually say that but what he says is open to be incorrectly interpreted, the actual quote is; "....... and secondly a narrow wavy band of stainless steel is welded to the head of the rails. This ensures that rust does not prevent electrical continuity being maintained. " Obviously the idea of the stainless steel is that it does not rust and it is true to say that there is a better contact between the train wheels and the stainless steel strip than there would be between the wheels and the crown of the rail because the same force is exerted on a smaller cross sectional area. As we know theory and practice are often incongruent and stainless still wavy strips may not rust but they do oxidise just like other metals and as we also know tracks will 'pickup' quite easily under a stabled train after just a few nights. South Harrow and Acton Town are two places in my old maintenance patch where we had track fuses pulled normally to ensure siding tracks were down and stayed down, a lineman's attendance being required to move trains in/out of South Harrow and Acton Works. When the 83 stock were being moved from South Harrow to Acton Works it was a dash to South Harrow IMR by van to get a train out of the sidings then a dash back to Acton Town East IMR to put the train into the Works before shuffling off to do my regular maintenance somewhere else . For those who may not know or don't even realise it new rails are notorious for problems with track shunting in some cases although the weight and friction of the train wheels is eventually enough to shift the rust and special procedures ensure the integrity of the signalling system in such circumstances. It is not unusual to have to take a shovel to the railhead during rerailing to shift the rust.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 14, 2008 1:57:46 GMT
It is not unusual to have to take a shovel to the railhead during rerailing to shift the rust. That's for when you've lost your Peco track rubber!
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Post by Tom on Jan 14, 2008 12:25:34 GMT
[Pedant Mode] As for John Glover's book... he knows so much that he thinks that stainless steel strips in sidings cause the track circuits to function via the additional pressure exerted on the railhead! He doesn't actually say that but what he says is open to be incorrectly interpreted, the actual quote is; "....... and secondly a narrow wavy band of stainless steel is welded to the head of the rails. This ensures that rust does not prevent electrical continuity being maintained. " He does in Principles of London Underground Operations. The photo caption (page 131) reads "...The rail nearest the camera has a wire welded to its top, to ensure that any train using it activates the track circuits through the increased pressure exerted on the rail."
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 15, 2008 2:13:50 GMT
He doesn't actually say that but what he says is open to be incorrectly interpreted, the actual quote is; "....... and secondly a narrow wavy band of stainless steel is welded to the head of the rails. This ensures that rust does not prevent electrical continuity being maintained. " He does in Principles of London Underground Operations. The photo caption (page 131) reads "...The rail nearest the camera has a wire welded to its top, to ensure that any train using it activates the track circuits through the increased pressure exerted on the rail." Oops I do apologise, my quote was from Glover's "London Underground page 102". As I'm sure we'll agree technical writing is an art not often mastered by everyday authors.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 15, 2008 2:20:55 GMT
It is not unusual to have to take a shovel to the railhead during rerailing to shift the rust. That's for when you've lost your Peco track rubber! I sold my model railway in 1982 but even then my technology was quite advanced, I used a Relco HF unit to blast the dust and grime off the track! These days I have no operational model railway so the double track on the mantle piece with a tamper and 4 car Northern Line 59 stock gathers dust as do the 'Trackside' LT vans!
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