metman
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Post by metman on Feb 11, 2011 15:31:17 GMT
Interesting question: the 1992 stock was also retrofitted, but I don't believe the DMs have a bracket at the cab end do they? They are sometimes found in the middle of trains however.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 18:13:10 GMT
Interesting question: the 1992 stock was also retrofitted, but I don't believe the DMs have a bracket at the cab end do they? They are sometimes found in the middle of trains however. No they don't- but it is a rather unusual situation to find a cab in the middle of a 92ts train... Only ever seen it once. Had to look twice! |
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Post by andypurk on Feb 11, 2011 18:49:06 GMT
Interesting question: the 1992 stock was also retrofitted, but I don't believe the DMs have a bracket at the cab end do they? They are sometimes found in the middle of trains however. No they don't- but it is a rather unusual situation to find a cab in the middle of a 92ts train... Only ever seen it once. Had to look twice! It's not that unusual, during my irregular travels on the Central line I'll normally have a ride in such a formation at least once per year. There are 10 more 1992 units with a driving cab (175) than without (133 'normal' plus 32 deicing), so it is quite likely have a cab in the middle of a formation in service. |
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Post by plasmid on Feb 11, 2011 19:21:40 GMT
The reason you don't see them in the middle often is because they are never usually in the middle!
They are always about 6 cars down (or 2 cars down for those who want to be smart).
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Post by andypurk on Feb 11, 2011 20:11:35 GMT
The reason you don't see them in the middle often is because they are never usually in the middle! They are always about 6 cars down (or 2 cars down for those who want to be smart).  My only ride in such a formation this year did have a cab in the center of the train. Formation was 91187, 92187, 92065, 91065, 92078, 93078, 92059, 91059 on 24st Jan. In my experience it is no more likely for the cab car in a center unit be be facing one way (3rd or 5th car) or the other (4th or 6th car) in the train formation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 20:58:07 GMT
The only formation I've seen like such was DM UNDM DM UNDM UNDM UNDM UNDM DM. I think it was when I went out to either West Ruislip or Epping.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 11, 2011 23:43:01 GMT
In my experience it is no more likely for the cab car in a center unit be be facing one way (3rd or 5th car) or the other (4th or 6th car) in the train formation. Clearly, except on the "old" Circle, any formation will spend half its time with a centre cab facing forwards and the other half backwards. With 340 two-car units, of which 175 are cabbed, you can make 85 eight-car trains, but you can only make 82 8-car trains without any centre driving cabs. This leaves eleven cabbed units and one uncabbed one, allowing three more trains. Assumimg no train has two centre cabs, you can make 80 trains without centre cabs and five with one, so one train in seventeen should have a centre cab - therefore if you make one return journey on the Central every six weeks you should indeed see about one a year. |
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Post by suncloud on Feb 12, 2011 1:37:07 GMT
Presumably though, cabbed units of 92ts are more likely to be stopped for repairs than uncabbed units. Due to having more equipment (i.e. what's in the cab) and maybe a greater chance of damage by virtue of leading the train...
So how does that affect the probability?
As having cabs in the middle of the train removes one set of passenger doors and reduces capacity by ~10 people, I'd imagine its considered preferable to keep the occurence as low as possible...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 10:49:19 GMT
There are quite a few of them out there, if you have a look inside they’ve normally got bits missing, driver’s seat, TBC, various control panels and none will be fitted with Connect radio. Couldn’t tell you why as I’ve never asked and I’m off until Feb 26 so won’t be going into the depot any time soon.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2011 11:03:36 GMT
It sounds like they are going the same way the 1967 stock. These cars could become permanent middle motors in the future?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 12, 2011 12:09:58 GMT
I would hazzard that they are far less likely to. Whereas the 67ts had all its units double ended (in theory) to start off with, they became whittled down to mostly single units with a few double enders for flexibility. The 92ts in effect has the equivilant of mostly single ended units anyway, composed of DM-M+M-M, with the equivilant of only 5 double enders for flexibility, as Norbitonflyer indicated. By the way, nice maths there NF! Unless theres a big push to 8car block formations in the future with the 92ts, surely its minimum allowable flexibility atm anyway? Also if another DM becomes long term stopped because its tape has been peeled off by a mischivous toddler at least it allows a semi-mothballed one to replace it almost instantly. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2011 12:29:21 GMT
It would be foolish to relatagate DMs to the middle of the units permanently I agree although I don't know how long it would take to move all the required components from one DM to the other, especially if one is at Ruislip and the other at Hainault!
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Post by 1992tsworker on Feb 12, 2011 12:50:11 GMT
Hello all, just joined the board. How fascinating it is to see so many people interested in our ailing public transport system. As I work on maintenance on the Central line, I can tell you that there are 3 cab units that are permanently used as centre cabs. They are known internally as 'blocked middles' and yes they have several pieces of equipment missing. One of them is unit 177 but will have to check the other 2 next time I am in work. Hope this helps.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 13:58:30 GMT
Somewhere in my notes I have it that one train has been formed of four cabbed (A-B) units, but this was a long time ago and before inter car barriers. I don't think it has happened since - unless you know different?
When I get a mo, I'll see if I can find it, along with the formation of the train.
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Post by 1992tsworker on Feb 12, 2011 14:13:29 GMT
Somewhere in my notes I have it that one train has been formed of four cabbed (A-B) units, but this was a long time ago and before inter car barriers. I don't think it has happened since - unless you know different? When I get a mo, I'll see if I can find it, along with the formation of the train. Trains are spilt down to single units when heavy maintenance takes place (eg motor and wheelset changes) and then maybe coupled up together with units from different trains. So the chances of any one train staying in the same formation for more than a few weeks is minimal. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 14:20:47 GMT
Absolutely, but from my records -
The first three-cab train was on 25/7/95 formed of units 163-166+335+161.
The four-cab train was on 12/10/99. It worked train 107 in the evening peak ex-Ruislip depot and was formed 201+071+269+197.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 12, 2011 14:31:12 GMT
Why did they build these extra DM's, rathen than 85 8 car trains with a DM at each end? Was the plan to run 4 car trains on the Epping to Ongar shuttle? Of course, the Epping to Ongar closure was not announced until well into the 1992 stock build programme.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 14:39:25 GMT
As far as I can remember, the original plan was still to use 4-car trains Hainault - Woodford, but this got overtaken by events when the 'all-round' service was introduced from 8/4/91 in WTT No.52. By this time, the stock had long been ordered - remember also it was originally conceived as 1990 Stock (a brochure I have by ABB actually shows this title) but became 1992 Stock.
WTT No.53 from 2/11/92 saw the 'all-round' service give way to the present pattern - i.e. central area via Newbury Park to Hainualt and then (some trains) to Woodford (and reverse).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 12, 2011 17:13:34 GMT
Well, my apologies metman!
Its interesting that Woodford-Hainault would have remained a four car shuttle. Could this be one of the reasons why the fleet's number isn't greater?
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 12, 2011 17:52:30 GMT
As I work on maintenance on the Central line, I can tell you that there are 3 cab units that are permanently used as centre cabs. They are known internally as 'blocked middles' and yes they have several pieces of equipment missing. One of them is unit 177 but will have to check the other 2 next time I am in work. Hope this helps. I once read that one unit (can't remember which) kept having problems when used on the end of a train, so was always put in the middle. Did that happen with all three, and the equipment was removed for spares as it was no longer needed, or did they have parts removed due to a shortage (like what happened to some of the 67TS)? There is also a C stock unit, 5555, which always seems to be used as a middle unit - I wonder if that's missing any equipment? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2011 18:10:52 GMT
That's ok Ben. I wonder if there has ever been an instance of two middle motors facing cab to cab like the previous 1962 stock? Unlikely, I'd love to see a photo however.... |
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jazza
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Post by jazza on Feb 12, 2011 18:36:21 GMT
As I work on maintenance on the Central line, I can tell you that there are 3 cab units that are permanently used as centre cabs. They are known internally as 'blocked middles' and yes they have several pieces of equipment missing. One of them is unit 177 but will have to check the other 2 next time I am in work. Hope this helps. I once read that one unit (can't remember which) kept having problems when used on the end of a train, so was always put in the middle. Did that happen with all three, and the equipment was removed for spares as it was no longer needed, or did they have parts removed due to a shortage (like what happened to some of the 67TS)? There is also a C stock unit, 5555, which always seems to be used as a middle unit - I wonder if that's missing any equipment? I'm sure I read on here a while ago that funny things happen with the brake on 5555 when it's used as a driving cab, and for that reason it's kept in the middle. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 12, 2011 18:57:57 GMT
I assumed the excess cabbed units were provided for flexibility - you can run a cabbed unit in the middle, but can't run an uncabbed one at the end.
There are of course a further ten cabbed 1992 units on the Drain.
As for C stock, I seem to recall that hybrid unit 5585 was used as the prototype for refurbishment (being ideally suited as the DM is a C77 replacement for the bomb-damaged C69 original, so it gave the chance to test the refurbishment ideas on both variants) and, for some reason, it could only be used as a middle unit thereafter.
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Post by 1992tsworker on Feb 17, 2011 22:37:10 GMT
Hello all, just joined the board. How fascinating it is to see so many people interested in our ailing public transport system. As I work on maintenance on the Central line, I can tell you that there are 3 cab units that are permanently used as centre cabs. They are known internally as 'blocked middles' and yes they have several pieces of equipment missing. One of them is unit 177 but will have to check the other 2 next time I am in work. Hope this helps. Just checked and the 3 cab units that are permanent 'blocked middles' are 177, 311 and 341. |
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Post by auxsetreq on Feb 17, 2011 23:10:53 GMT
Hello all, just joined the board. How fascinating it is to see so many people interested in our ailing public transport system. As I work on maintenance on the Central line, I can tell you that there are 3 cab units that are permanently used as centre cabs. They are known internally as 'blocked middles' and yes they have several pieces of equipment missing. One of them is unit 177 but will have to check the other 2 next time I am in work. Hope this helps. Just checked and the 3 cab units that are permanent 'blocked middles' are 177, 311 and 341. You mean the one with the smashed DTS, the one with a BIG hole where the desk monitor should be, and the one that has the door control panels modified to re-open only with the BIG black plunger as a re-set <<<< what idiot came up with that?! Some with no driver's seats some with tape or brackets holding the TBC and NONE with a way of stopping anyone from accessing the cab via the M door and doing something bad. I see that on the Bakerloo line they have a lock to prevent trespass into middle cabs. |
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My only ride in such a formation this year did have a cab in the center of the train. Formation was 91187, 92187, 92065, 91065, 92078, 93078, 92059, 91059 on 24st Jan. In my experience it is no more likely for the cab car in a center unit be be facing one way (3rd or 5th car) or the other (4th or 6th car) in the train formation.
