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Post by den on Feb 12, 2011 8:27:09 GMT
I was at pinner station the other day and saw a member of the station staff holding a lantern/torch that gave off a green light. She shone it in the direction the train had left.
I was just wondering what it was used for?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 12, 2011 9:10:01 GMT
Was it by chance the last train?
In my days, the only time a green hand lamp was used was to give the right away to the guard on the last train to a destination. Other trains were given a white signal as the right away to the guard.
Whether this practice still happens I don't know, maybe a serving staff member could answer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 9:20:39 GMT
Could it have been that the OPO equipment wasn't working and trains were being given 'assisted dispatch' - i.e. station staff giving the "right" (to depart)?
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2011 9:43:09 GMT
If it was last train if could have been what's called 'lamping out'. If it was during the day, I bet reganorak is correct!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 10:41:30 GMT
As Reganorak says, sounds like assisted dispatch, they should have been level with the front cab, acting in place of faulty OPO equipment. On the Central Line once they’ve given us “the right” they should keep watching the platform for any possible incidents and hit the nearest platform emergency plunger if something does go wrong which will stop the train. I don’t know what they have on the Met.
A lot of last trains are “lamped out” with SATS batons these days. Had a wonderful incident a few years ago where someone somewhere decided to start using handlamps again, gave it to a CSA who was either told or decided themselves to have a red aspect showing when the last train arrived. What they weren’t told was where to stand so as I came into the platform there was the CSA stood halfway along pointing a red handlamp towards me.
So I carried out the proper procedure and stopped before I passed a signal at danger, much to the confusion of the CSA.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2011 11:05:47 GMT
The Met I think still uses the touches for lapping out.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 12, 2011 12:06:19 GMT
As Reganorak says, sounds like assisted dispatch, they should have been level with the front cab, acting in place of faulty OPO equipment. On the Central Line once they’ve given us “the right” they should keep watching the platform for any possible incidents and hit the nearest platform emergency plunger if something does go wrong which will stop the train. I don’t know what they have on the Met. A lot of last trains are “lamped out” with SATS batons these days. Had a wonderful incident a few years ago where someone somewhere decided to start using handlamps again, gave it to a CSA who was either told or decided themselves to have a red aspect showing when the last train arrived. What they weren’t told was where to stand so as I came into the platform there was the CSA stood halfway along pointing a red handlamp towards me. So I carried out the proper procedure and stopped before I passed a signal at danger, much to the confusion of the CSA. They used to shine the green light at cameras that fed b&w OPO monitors!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 15:27:41 GMT
As Reganorak says, sounds like assisted dispatch, they should have been level with the front cab, acting in place of faulty OPO equipment. On the Central Line once they’ve given us “the right” they should keep watching the platform for any possible incidents and hit the nearest platform emergency plunger if something does go wrong which will stop the train. I don’t know what they have on the Met. The person providing assisted despatch must stand where they can be seen by the Train/Instructor Operator and where they can see the part of the platform the operator can not see. So on a curved platform with a defective camera at rear, the despatcher must stand near the back where they can see the dead area but in view of a working camera that can be seen by the operator. (Though it is amusing to see them try to despatch you from next to the cab door being able to see exactly what you can see anyway!!). On lines with neither ATO nor in cab CCTV once the despatch is given there is no further opportunity to stop the train (exactly as with a normal departure for such lines at every station) (not unsafe, just a belt and braces job can be done on ATO or In Cab CCTV lines)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 22:06:05 GMT
As Reganorak says, sounds like assisted dispatch, they should have been level with the front cab, acting in place of faulty OPO equipment. On the Central Line once they’ve given us “the right” they should keep watching the platform for any possible incidents and hit the nearest platform emergency plunger if something does go wrong which will stop the train. I don’t know what they have on the Met. A lot of last trains are “lamped out” with SATS batons these days. Had a wonderful incident a few years ago where someone somewhere decided to start using handlamps again, gave it to a CSA who was either told or decided themselves to have a red aspect showing when the last train arrived. What they weren’t told was where to stand so as I came into the platform there was the CSA stood halfway along pointing a red handlamp towards me. So I carried out the proper procedure and stopped before I passed a signal at danger, much to the confusion of the CSA. I suppose thats a bit better than actually being given the lamp.... But it does sound like Assisted Dispatch was in use in this incidence. The times where I've been dazzled by the OPO monitor by a lamp being flickered directly in the camera...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 22:40:50 GMT
They used to shine the green light at cameras that fed b&w OPO monitors! The obvious problem is that you cannot tell which colour light you are being shown even on colour CCTV, you just see a light. Around 2000 or 2001 there was an instruction saying that the handsignalman/person should stand level with the front cab and the TOp should be seated at the controls. I seem to recall that if the whole of the platform could not be seen from that position then you needed another member of station staff to dispatch the train. The new rulebook did away with all that and now it states rather vaguely that the TOp and the assisting staff member must come to a full understanding of what is to be done but it doesn’t actually specify positioning. Needless to say it’s very hard to come to an understanding when whoever is on the platform is standing at the back of the train………..
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Post by citysig on Feb 12, 2011 22:48:57 GMT
The new rulebook did away with all that and now it states rather vaguely that the TOp and the assisting staff member must come to a full understanding of what is to be done but it doesn’t actually specify positioning. Needless to say it’s very hard to come to an understanding when whoever is on the platform is standing at the back of the train……….. The new rule book did away with a lot, and made the rest very ambiguous. But maybe in this instance it was ready for the de-staffing of stations. That's not said to begin that debate either - far too many questions in relation to that subject and getting assisted dispatch. Few staff have tried what occured the other evening on my train at Great Portland Street. After a passenger alarm, the 1 member of staff and supervisor between them managed to assist the train (1 car out) to depart by the CSA raising his hand, and the Supervisor yelling down the tunnel. It worked a treat.
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North End
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Post by North End on Feb 12, 2011 22:59:57 GMT
The new rulebook did away with all that and now it states rather vaguely that the TOp and the assisting staff member must come to a full understanding of what is to be done but it doesn’t actually specify positioning. Needless to say it’s very hard to come to an understanding when whoever is on the platform is standing at the back of the train……….. The new rule book did away with a lot, and made the rest very ambiguous. But maybe in this instance it was ready for the de-staffing of stations. That's not said to begin that debate either - far too many questions in relation to that subject and getting assisted dispatch. Few staff have tried what occured the other evening on my train at Great Portland Street. After a passenger alarm, the 1 member of staff and supervisor between them managed to assist the train (1 car out) to depart by the CSA raising his hand, and the Supervisor yelling down the tunnel. It worked a treat. On the Northern Line, if there's no staff available, sometimes they get a Train Operator travelling in the opposite direction to do the assisted dispatch. Probably ok at an island platform, but definitely shouldn't happen at somewhere like Hampstead!
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 13, 2011 0:05:15 GMT
Oh how the system is falling apart! Under OMO/OPO the whole idea was to ensure that the guard could be done away with by ensuring that the driver had the ability to see the entire platform. Originally OPO depended upon B&W cameras and monitors so it should have been common sense to replace coloured lights for 'right away' with something else such as semaphore of sorts, clearly distinguishable without colour, e.g. different shaped SATS batons. One wonders what will satisfactorily replace manual 'right away' when there are no staff available to make the handsignal. I can just see the function centralised to the control room, well no I can't, I'm being flippant. It could be done and there are ways to do it with several technologies of choice but by the time that stations are unstaffed cabs will be too!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 7:01:30 GMT
On the Central if the CCTV fault is on the train the Control Room will “talk us out”, keep up a constant commentary of the progress our departure, if the chatter stops at any time we apply the brakes as it could be we’ve lost communication though mostly it’s that the LC has got bored and forgotten what they’re meant to be doing.
If the CCTV fault is on the station and the Control Room can’t get a picture either then we need station staff. There was one instance when the LC asked me to “self dispatch” but for some reason all platforms on the Central Line were made “Category A” which means that you need assistance. Had I done so and had there been an incident I would have been held responsible for not following the procedure.
At some point they will probably re-Categorise the straight platforms to “B” as we’ve had a lot of unstaffed stations on the Epping branch recently but until they do we stick to procedure to cover our own backs. There have been a couple of recent incidents where TOps failed to carry out procedure on the say-so of a LC and it’s always the TOp who ends up getting the worst of it. It’s just not worth risking losing your job and/or jail time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 9:08:39 GMT
On the Central if the CCTV fault is on the train the Control Room will “talk us out”, keep up a constant commentary of the progress our departure, if the chatter stops at any time we apply the brakes as it could be we’ve lost communication though mostly it’s that the LC has got bored and forgotten what they’re meant to be doing. If the CCTV fault is on the station and the Control Room can’t get a picture either then we need station staff. There was one instance when the LC asked me to “self dispatch” but for some reason all platforms on the Central Line were made “Category A” which means that you need assistance. Had I done so and had there been an incident I would have been held responsible for not following the procedure. At some point they will probably re-Categorise the straight platforms to “B” as we’ve had a lot of unstaffed stations on the Epping branch recently but until they do we stick to procedure to cover our own backs. There have been a couple of recent incidents where TOps failed to carry out procedure on the say-so of a LC and it’s always the TOp who ends up getting the worst of it. It’s just not worth risking losing your job and/or jail time. This procedure is interesting. How do they know that the picture is actually live? Personally, it does sound rather dodgy - compared to usin g a more local/closed system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 11:44:31 GMT
[This procedure is interesting. How do they know that the picture is actually live? Personally, it does sound rather dodgy - compared to using a more local/closed system. No idea, to the best of my knowledge this is how it's been done since they introduced in-cab CCTV on the Central Line, I’ve only been here 8 years or so. I doubt if they'd be still using this system if there were any major problems with it and I doubt if HMRI would have given it the nod when it first came in if they weren’t sure it was doing it’s job.
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Post by den on Feb 13, 2011 13:26:36 GMT
It wasn't the last train but it was late at night (midnight). She was standing half way down the platform and if I recall correctly she turned the light off when the train had started to move off, so I guess it was assisted dispatch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 13:40:27 GMT
Its the last train to a destination, this isn't alway the last train from the station.
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