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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 3:50:41 GMT
I have a question which has bugged me ever since I used to ride on these stocks frequently as a kid back in the 70s. IIRC there were four buttons along the bottom row on each side of the car. One was the 'signal' button for letting the train op know it was safe to go. The others were for opening (red) and closing (black) the doors, two I think for open and one for close. My question is, quite simply, why were there two buttons for opening the doors? Was one a back up for the other (for example in an emergency)? Thanks in advance for any further info on this!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 7:13:04 GMT
There are still two buttons on each side for opening the doors. The reason I believe is to provide extra safety - it's easier to unintentionally hit one button than two.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 9:21:03 GMT
eirikh0 is right.
However, in times past when "passenger door control" was operative, one button was "passenger open", the other "normal open". These were separated by the "close" button and the "signal" (i.e. to ring the bell) button was on the end.
Also remember that the R Stock originally door controls operated by a 'key' with an off-centre 'lug'. This system was replaced when the first lot of 1938 Tube Stock was withdrawn and their panels were used instead. Recycling, eh!!
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Feb 2, 2011 11:08:51 GMT
Yes - it makes it a conscious act. AIUI (and Colin etc. will correct if wrong.... ) the buttons are more than 'adjacent fingers' worth apart so in theory both hands must be used. Even with CSDE (especially if/when it fails) it makes door opening a deliberate act.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 11:42:14 GMT
Yes - it makes it a conscious act. AIUI (and Colin etc. will correct if wrong.... ) the buttons are more than 'adjacent fingers' worth apart so in theory both hands must be used. Even with CSDE (especially if/when it fails) it makes door opening a deliberate act. All true except that the door buttons on the 'drivers desk' - certainly on 'C' & 'D' stocks - can be opened with one hand. As a relatively new T/op, I did find it painful after a while using two fingers - the spread to get both buttons is kinda unnatural - but your fingers get used to it after a while. The bulkhead buttons are certainly a 'two hand' job (ooh Matron), but you would only use these carrying out a door open procedure when your not in - or a failure of - the CDSE loop.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 2, 2011 12:42:24 GMT
eirikh0 is right. However, in times past when "passenger door control" was operative, one button was "passenger open", the other "normal open". These were separated by the "close" button and the "signal" (i.e. to ring the bell) button was on the end. Also remember that the R Stock originally door controls operated by a 'key' with an off-centre 'lug'. This system was replaced when the first lot of 1938 Tube Stock was withdrawn and their panels were used instead. Recycling, eh!! Didn't some also come from the Q23 cars converted to trailers/scrapped or am I thinking just the P1 to CP conversions?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 21:30:08 GMT
Yes - it makes it a conscious act. AIUI (and Colin etc. will correct if wrong.... ) the buttons are more than 'adjacent fingers' worth apart so in theory both hands must be used. Even with CSDE (especially if/when it fails) it makes door opening a deliberate act. The close button was generally between the two open buttons, but on OPO trains could still be operated with a single open stretched hand however from D stock the close buttons became adjacent and the process was less likely to cause repetitive strain injury. I have always assumed the two "open" buttons was an obvious safety feature. I have ceratinly had a train where one "open" button became jammed in.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 21:57:56 GMT
The Q23 conversions from motors to trailers was done in 1959-60. It may be that some of these panels were used to equip the P Stock cars that didn't have guards controls (13264-13269 if I remember correctly), but I'm not sure.
The R Stock panel replacement was 1973 onwards.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 2, 2011 23:25:36 GMT
Sounds about right. The numbers sound right too, they were converted when moved to the District an made CP stock.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 1:55:10 GMT
Thanks for your replies gentlemen...
Phil, now you mention it I do recall seeing guards using both hands but it never struck me at the time that this action was safety related - I guess I was just a wee bit too young to understand back then!!
I think I just recall the 'key' system referred to - didn't the key fit into a slot hidden by a flap further up the panel? The cut in/cut out controls were in the middle IIRC.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 3, 2011 6:17:48 GMT
The Q23 conversions from motors to trailers was done in 1959-60. It may be that some of these panels were used to equip the P Stock cars that didn't have guards controls (13264-13269 if I remember correctly), but I'm not sure. This was done earlier - 1950.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 3, 2011 6:20:24 GMT
Yes - it makes it a conscious act. AIUI (and Colin etc. will correct if wrong.... ) the buttons are more than 'adjacent fingers' worth apart so in theory both hands must be used. Even with CSDE (especially if/when it fails) it makes door opening a deliberate act. It was normal for most of us to use one hand. It did it with one hand for years. [you in the back row - stop sniggering]
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 6:57:15 GMT
Also worth suggesting that the Doors Open circuits in these stocks will have have separate feed and return train wires, one set for each side of the train, to give protection against electrical defects. These separate circuits were fed over one button each at the active Position.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 8:10:43 GMT
The Q23 motor to trailer conversions were not done in 1950. They were done 1958-60. I will post the dates for you when I get back this evening.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 3, 2011 13:29:15 GMT
That's what I was lead to believe too. I thought the Q23 trailer conversions (14) where to compensate for Q38 trailer cars being converted to COP trailers. This was to cover the Circle Line upgrade from 5 to 6 cars.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 17:56:59 GMT
Here are the Q23 conversions from motors to trailers. All 14 were the first to be scrapped between 1964 and 1966.
4140 - 08835 - 20.11.59 4142 - 08836 - 15.10.59 4151 - 08837 - 27.06.59 4153 - 08838 - 21.02.58 4154 - 08839 - 26.09.58 4155 - 08840 - 24.12.59 4156 - 08841 - 10.12.59 4157 - 08842 - 24.12.59 4159 - 08843 - 10.01.60 4163 - 08844 - 15.05.59 4165 - 08845 - 10.01.60 4169 - 08846 - 13.06.59 4171 - 08847 - 06.11.59 4173 - 08848 - 10.08.59
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Feb 3, 2011 23:24:03 GMT
The key hidden behind the flap at the top of the panel was the key which livens the panel at that position. This was a centre lug key.
The R stock key on the old panels had an off-centre lug. If you held the key the "right" way up, you could easily cut your hand on the sharp bits of the quadrant, so most guards would use it by putting the thum and forefinger at the bottom end of the key.
Yes the open buttons could easily be used with one hand. The same panels were used on the old Mersey electrics, W&C stock etc.
The R stock panel mods came in late 1972 when they started withdrawing Q stock.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 4, 2011 11:13:47 GMT
The Q23 motor to trailer conversions were not done in 1950. They were done 1958-60. I will post the dates for you when I get back this evening. Sorry, I was referring to the M Stock (Q35) cars converted to trailers so that the door control panels could be fitted to the P Stock motors without them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 19:55:37 GMT
The key hidden behind the flap at the top of the panel was the key which livens the panel at that position. This was a centre lug key. Although slightly o/t. A key that was also a useful addition to the AET's toolkit and had many unofficial uses to make life easier when faulting or maintaining. F
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 5, 2011 0:07:26 GMT
The key hidden behind the flap at the top of the panel was the key which livens the panel at that position. This was a centre lug key. Although slightly o/t. A key that was also a useful addition to the AET's toolkit and had many unofficial uses to make life easier when faulting or maintaining. F Indeed they are, though I only ever used mine to open a single leaf door on a stabled '72 stock car.
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 5, 2011 10:43:25 GMT
Although slightly o/t. A key that was also a useful addition to the AET's toolkit and had many unofficial uses to make life easier when faulting or maintaining. F Indeed they are, though I only ever used mine to open a single leaf door on a stabled '72 stock car. Possibly the same type of motorman's key that I used to keep in the trainstop maintenance bag for undoing pineapples. I used to keep a couple of such keys of slightly different size.
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Post by t697 on Feb 5, 2011 11:45:21 GMT
Possibly the same type of motorman's key that I used to keep in the trainstop maintenance bag for undoing pineapples. Now I've heard of bits of trains nicknamed chicken, hot potato, leg of lamb. What's a pineapple here?
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 5, 2011 14:02:26 GMT
Possibly the same type of motorman's key that I used to keep in the trainstop maintenance bag for undoing pineapples. Now I've heard of bits of trains nicknamed chicken, hot potato, leg of lamb. What's a pineapple here? A pineapple is the light green plastic coated type nut securing a trainstop lid. They are made to be hand tightened AFAIK but we inevitably had to use an adjustable spanner to loosen them without damaging the plastic and it just so happened that a key was an ideal fit with a short enough shank to apply the right amount of grip and torque in an instant. Pineapple comes from the shape because they are fluted and resemble small pineapples.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Feb 5, 2011 23:36:08 GMT
Nah, the guard's control key is a different size to the motorman's control key.
Pineapples? No eff in bananas mate.
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