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Post by ducatisti on Jan 26, 2011 8:52:25 GMT
Picked up an old map of london (1/2" to the mile), and one of the gems on it is the northern heights extension mapped as fact.
I'm trying to date it, but there doesn't seem to be a date on it, other than that the Royal Warrant is "to the late King George V" - so it must be after 20 Jan 1936 (and presumably not much later). Interestingly, it still marks the LNER station in Edgware too.
I'll post a pic or two when I get a round tuit
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 10:37:39 GMT
Wow, thank you! Waiting for a pic impatiently
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 26, 2011 11:04:34 GMT
I collect old maps as a hobby. I would date this map as immediately pre war or possibly just post war. Probably the former given the reference to King George V. Most if not all maps were withdrawn from general sale at the beginning of the war and it is possibly one of these maps released after the war. Also in that period maps were only updated every 5 or 6 years even for cities such as London (In some rural areas only every 25-30 years.) and Bartholemews were probably 'hedging their bets' by publishing details that were not actually there. I look forward to your posting a pic or two then I may be able to tell you more.
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Post by ducatisti on Jan 26, 2011 11:33:09 GMT
cool! Another map-fan. Is there any bit I should look to include to assist on dating? (disclaimer, I do have a wedding, a racebike and lots of other tat to organise, so remind me if I forget).
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Post by ducatisti on Jan 26, 2011 11:34:09 GMT
On the subject of maps being withdrawn, I've got a couple of OS maps dated in the war years they are the normal inch to the mile jobs, and there's no obvious WD branding on them. What would be your view on that?
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 26, 2011 11:55:13 GMT
The OS was a department of the military so there are plenty of wartime OS maps about only they were not available to Joe Public. I prefer to collect larger scale maps so I am not that familiar with Bartholemew maps but they were based on OS maps and published under licence from the OS. The OS maps have a revision date usually in a bottom corner and it would say something like this >> Revised 1936. Major roads revised 1937. Selected revision 1939. If you can find a copy of the OS map your map is derived from this will give you the information you require. PS You will need a magnifying glass as the printing is minute.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 12:58:10 GMT
I, too, am a map fan - just recently enjoying one of Roman Britain. Anyway - I also want to see yours when posted, Ducasti. (Your wedding?? And a racebike for a quick escape afterward?? )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 11:04:10 GMT
The OS was a department of the military No - the relationship between OS and the military is a subject in its own right, going way off topic - suffice it to say that the OS has been on its own since the nineteenth century, the military producing its own maps, although for the UK they are OS maps with military annotations Whether non-military OS maps were produced during for official civil use I don't know, or whether such got 'military' maps I don't know I would say that Barts maps were based on OS (survey) data (as are most maps of the UK), rather than any particular Barts map being based on some specific OS map - with the possibility of including other information from other sources. There's also a variation in the OS and Barts attitude to railways: OS have always regarded them as features on the ground, Barts seem at times to have regarded them as means of passenger transport, and ignored ones which aren't! Another good dating aid is the magnetic variation date - but Barts did not always provide this. The accurate dating of Barts maps can be non-trivial - I'm sure I've seen web pages on it. Remember that the only bit of the Northern Heights extensions which was not built was Edgeware - Bushey Heath: everything else was built and existed as a railway (and so definitely on maps, OS or other). But both Barts and Geographers (A-Z) did put it on (some of) their maps - with or without an 'under construction' note: I have a Barts one-inch map somewhere with it, which I know I decided was a late '40s production.
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Post by ducatisti on Jan 27, 2011 22:16:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 22:25:54 GMT
Those photos are VERY interesting!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 23:42:29 GMT
Looking at them: On the penultimate, if the line about which you ask 'is this the White City loop?' is that through 'Stadium Sta' (in the centre), then the answer is no: its the LNER Wembley Stadium Loop (opened with the Stadium for shuttle trains from Marylebone).
Getting back to try and date your map: I have a Barts map with 'by appt to the late King George V' on the front, and reference to 'Citizens World Atlas 8th ed 1944' on the back - so they probably kept the KGV ref into the post era (but to when?); yours shows 'Willesden Green' Sta (not '& Cricklewood') which would make it post 1938; while railways (not LT) have 'big four' names => pre 1948. I note the the Watford bypass is the A500, not A41 - it changed 'early post war' (but when?) Are there any airports (Heathrow, etc.) marked on the map?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 0:42:57 GMT
I note the the Watford bypass is the A500, not A41 - it changed 'early post war' (but when?) For what it is worth, the 1950 AA Road Book shows the Watford bypass as A500.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jan 28, 2011 8:42:18 GMT
Caution has to be maintained when using a map's features to date it... As noted,railways were often revised separately,so may either be out-of-date on an updated map,or very new on an outdated background. Or just contradictory. I have a '50s A-Z which shows the Crystal Palace High Level branch as closed,but the Ally Pally branch as open,though the latter closed slightly earlier in the same year (1954) Commercial maps didn't like to publicise their impression dates (presumably to extend shelf-life) but even OS maps can be tricky. I have spent more time than perhaps I should have,trying to pin down the date on old London Atlases without clear success.....and often the best indicator is the Beck tube map reproduced "with kind permission"
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 28, 2011 10:15:09 GMT
When did the Wembley loop go out of use? IIRC it was pre war. As has been said it is very difficult to date maps by their features. The most frequent updates were carried out by the OS but as I stated only every 5-6 years at best and as Bartholemews and other publishers obtained their data from the OS it is probable that the period was extended and that there are several anomalies on the map. As it appears from what has been said there are some post war features on your map which will date it as about 1945-50. Don't forget that the green belt which effectively stopped the Northern line expansion did not come into effect until circa 1947 and many of these lines were still being operated by the main line companies. Another significant feature that is missing is the Aldenham bus works, this was built before the war as the depot to serve the new lines. During the war it became a 'shadow' factory making bombers and for security reasons would not have been included but would have likely to have been on a prewar map.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 11:04:11 GMT
One minor point is that the map shows the line from Golders Green continuing through Edgware to Bushey; but the line from Finchley terminates at Edgware LNER station.
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Post by ducatisti on Jan 28, 2011 11:21:24 GMT
Indeed - that is one of the interesting things about it. The LNER line did exist and ran to the LNER station in Edgware. Part of the Northern Heights Plan was to remodel it so it ran into Edgware LU (and thence onward). This is what fascinates me about this map - the extension is listed as fact, but the works that much more nearly did happen (IIRC one of the Edgware sidings is on the alignment), is not even marked as intended.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jan 28, 2011 11:57:30 GMT
When did the Wembley loop go out of use? IIRC it was pre war. 18th May 1968....Which surprised me,too I thought it closed in the early 50s,but it was there in a derelict state in the late 70s. Is there anything still to see?
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 28, 2011 14:28:58 GMT
I remember a while ago some of the exhibition pavilions were going to be demolished due too the stadium re building. It is quite likely that a lot if not all of the remaining railway infrastructure has now gone.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 28, 2011 14:38:07 GMT
When did the Wembley loop go out of use? IIRC it was pre war. 18th May 1968....Which surprised me,too I thought it closed in the early 50s,but it was there in a derelict state in the late 70s. Is there anything still to see? I looked on Google Earth, there is a curved line of buildings to the east of the new stadium that appears to follow the course of the loop but no actual evidence of the railway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 17:27:43 GMT
I remember a while ago some of the exhibition pavilions were going to be demolished due too the stadium re building. It is quite likely that a lot if not all of the remaining railway infrastructure has now gone. Google Streetview shows South Way rising over the bridge across the former Wembley Stadium loop line.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 29, 2011 10:04:14 GMT
I remember a while ago some of the exhibition pavilions were going to be demolished due too the stadium re building. It is quite likely that a lot if not all of the remaining railway infrastructure has now gone. Google Streetview shows South Way rising over the bridge across the former Wembley Stadium loop line. It looks as if the cutting at that point has been filled and landscaped.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 7, 2011 10:57:16 GMT
Going slightly off the original topic, one of the earliest maps I've seen was owned by a Waterloo driver. It was dated about 1830, and he proudly said "there's no railways on it".
Until I went "saaarf o' the river" and showed him the Surrey Iron Railway!
He took it to the British Museum who reckoned it was Bart's no.5, printed in colour and it was the first time they'd seen a copy.
He got it off his grandfather.
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