|
|
Post by rikio on Apr 19, 2005 21:14:38 GMT
Hi! first post on thses new forums, I posted a few times back on the old ones, and these are a great improvment! Well done Dave! ;D ;D Bit of a random starter question, but any Idea what kind of problem has caused the circle and the H&C to have big problems. The TfL website says faulty radios, but what kind of a problem would affect the whole network? and why (I presume from the website) hasnt the C stock district service been affected? Thanks alot! Richard. P.s.... Brilliant site... as always!  |
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Apr 19, 2005 21:29:37 GMT
Hi Richard,
Welcome to the new forum, I'm glad you like the move and that you'll visit often!
I suppose the short answer to your specific question though is that at present there isn't an integrated radio net, so something that affects one line doen't necessarily affect others. For example, 'our' service between Edgware Road and Wimbledon is on the District frequency 'below' Notting Hill Gate so I'm guessing that this was perhaps a 'me' problem?
Perhaps some of our Met signalling staff can clarify this?
There are too differing requirements on sub-surface and deep tube lines which will also have a major impact on the overall service on that particular line.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2005 22:08:16 GMT
Hi Richard, Welcome to the new forum, I'm glad you like the move and that you'll visit often! I suppose the short answer to your specific question though is that at present there isn't an integrated radio net, so something that affects one line doen't necessarily affect others. For example, 'our' service between Edgware Road and Wimbledon is on the District frequency 'below' Notting Hill Gate so I'm guessing that this was perhaps a 'me' problem? Perhaps some of our Met signalling staff can clarify this? Well the Met is on a different channel to the district in that area, so if thereis a problem with one of the bay stations (or whatever they are called this week) the radio in that area will not work. Evidentally it must be somewhere along the north side of the circle as the met was FUBAR earlier! |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Apr 20, 2005 8:48:42 GMT
Welcome Richard. I take it you are talking about the travel news on the day you posted (yesterday).
The Line Controller to train radio broke down on the Met line. The same controller also deals with the H&C between Hammersmith and Aldgate East and the top half of the Circle Line (Notting Hill Gate-Aldgate).
Many drivers have issues about taking any train into a tunnel section when the train radio is defective. They are after all alone on the front, and in the event of an emergency in a tunnel, they feel they would not be able to summon assistance effectively.
Therefore yesterday when the system broke down, many drivers refused to take their trains futher than Baker Street (on the Met) or Edgware Road (H&C/Circle).
As for the District C-stocks. Most of their service is on the District frequency. They swap to the Met around Notting Hill Gate. I believe that some were turned short at High Street Ken, but in doing this that particular service ran with few delays (except if you wanted to catch one from Paddington of course.)
The fault was mostly rectified in time for the evening peak so delays lessened.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Apr 20, 2005 11:29:25 GMT
 Why do drivers have an issue with train radio breakdown? Is not "Drico" still fitted on trains and "Dricotests" not carried out any more? 
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2005 12:08:33 GMT
Why do drivers have an issue with train radio breakdown? Is not "Drico" still fitted on trains and "Dricotests" not carried out any more? Drico was replaced with the current cab radio system sometime in the 1970bungles. It is turn is slated to be replaced with Connect. |
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Apr 20, 2005 14:25:03 GMT
Why do drivers have an issue with train radio breakdown? Is not "Drico" still fitted on trains and "Dricotests" not carried out any more? The DRICO handsets are still in the cabs but are decommissioned. I wonder if they had new batts fitted, would they still work? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2005 15:31:55 GMT
Hmmm, obviously Met/Circle drivers are a bunch of softies then!
They should try running up the east end of the District with no signal phones, no train radio and no way of summoning help in an emergency (if I don't have credit on my phone, which is 99% of the time these days).
It's a shame the District don't do the same... They may actually fix the useless radio system then!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2005 17:56:20 GMT
Drico was replaced with the current cab radio system sometime in the 1970bungles. It is turn is slated to be replaced with Connect. Drico was still officially operative until around the late 1980's and Drico tests times were timetabled even after train radio was installed. |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Apr 21, 2005 8:25:04 GMT
Hmmm, obviously Met/Circle drivers are a bunch of softies then! They should try running up the east end of the District with no signal phones, no train radio and no way of summoning help in an emergency (if I don't have credit on my phone, which is 99% of the time these days). It's a shame the District don't do the same... They may actually fix the useless radio system then! Well we've been here before. They didn't seem to have a problem being out in the open, miles from anywhere. It was the twin track tube tunnels in the city, where every few seconds you pass a train coming the other way, or stop at a staffed station, or are held by one of our signals with a handy phone on it. The code red argument is also a little weak. We will chuck everything back to danger and it won't take long for anyone to reach either a red or come behind a train standing at one. But then as mentioned before, the equipment is there for a reason so... We have quite a bit of dodgy equipment at Baker Street which we (try to) use to run the railway with. The temptation to shut the whole job down is almost too much. |
|
solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
Posts: 1,215
|
Post by solidbond on Apr 21, 2005 9:59:02 GMT
I heard a wonderful conspiracy theory about the radio problems the other day. As you know, the Picc and Northern have been having on-going radio problems for some time now. Under PPP, Tubelines are penalised for defective equipment, and the rate goes up the longer the defect lasts. The theory is that, when the Northern started having radio problems, the part that was defective is impossible to get hold of now, so they couldn't repair it. However, after a few days their penalty levels were due to rise, so they 'borrowed' the broken part from the Picc. Since it was now a new defect, the penalties are reset  Once the Picc was due to go to the higher penalty levels, the broken piece was returned, and the Northern had the problems. After this happened a few times, LU got wise to the fact and warned Tubelines. Unfortunately the part became defective again, so Tubelines made a midnight raid on SSL and nicked the part from them, hence the problems on the H&C, Circle and Met lines ;D ;D ;D OK - I know it ain't true, but it sounds good!!! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2005 14:20:58 GMT
Well we've been here before. They didn't seem to have a problem being out in the open, miles from anywhere. It was the twin track tube tunnels in the city, where every few seconds you pass a train coming the other way, or stop at a staffed station, or are held by one of our signals with a handy phone on it. The code red argument is also a little weak. We will chuck everything back to danger and it won't take long for anyone to reach either a red or come behind a train standing at one. But then as mentioned before, the equipment is there for a reason so... We have quite a bit of dodgy equipment at Baker Street which we (try to) use to run the railway with. The temptation to shut the whole job down is almost too much. I know what you mean, Citysig... As you know the train radio's are the things which annoy me most about the District, so I never miss an opportunity to whinge! ;D In fact, I'm ok running through the city. Through the city, as you rightly say, there are a lot more controlled signals therefore a lot more SPTs. There's also the TT wires if needed. Also there is a train going the other way usually every minute or so whom can be lamped down and assistance sought. It's the east end which I have a problem with, due to up to 10 mins between trains, huge sections of auto signals with no SPTs, no TT wires etc. As you're probably aware, the east end of the District is the area most likely to need urgent assistance. (Don't worry Citysig, I'm not whinging about you or your colleagues this time! ;D) |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Apr 21, 2005 16:30:34 GMT
OK - I know it ain't true, but it sounds good!!! Sounds completely plausible to me. They have done it in the past with other pieces of equipment so why not. (Don't worry Citysig, I'm not whinging about you or your colleagues this time! ;D) Well now that makes a refreshing change ;D |
|
|
|
Post by igelkotten on Apr 21, 2005 23:47:58 GMT
Excuse a poor ignorant furriner here, but I assume that the DRICO system was those portable telephone handsets the drivers were supposed to clip on to the tunnel telephone wires. Or am I completely wrong here?  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2005 1:18:30 GMT
Excuse a poor ignorant furriner here, but I assume that the DRICO system was those portable telephone handsets the drivers were supposed to clip on to the tunnel telephone wires. Or am I completely wrong here? No, the DRICO system was a separate system, built into the cab on most stocks. The DRIver COntroller was there so a driver could communicate with the controller without discharging current, he attached the clips to the Tunnel Telephone wires and spoke to the controller, when finished he simply unclipped the wires and carried on . The Telephone handset is mainly for emergency communication and when clipped to the Tunnel Telephone wires discharges current. |
|
|
|
Post by q8 on May 11, 2005 6:26:22 GMT
They should try running up the east end of the District with no signal phones, no train radio and no way of summoning help in an emergency (if I don't have credit on my phone, which is 99% of the time these days).
----------------------------------------------------------
I just came across this thread (WHO'S got a dirty mind)
In my day we were told that in extreme emergency at the east end of the District we could use the signal telephone on ANY of the LTSR signals (as they all had phones then) to contact someone. I take it that since the re-signalling the LTSR signals no longer have phones on them?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2005 7:52:50 GMT
Some of the controlled sticks in Upminster IECC's patch have telephones, but IIRC many do not. And the IECC is too far away from the signal box for someone in the former to yell out that a driver's in trouble to the latter.
|
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on May 11, 2005 9:22:35 GMT
On the Network rail side, all signals are fitted with signal post telephones. It's our side they are lacking.
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on May 11, 2005 9:34:22 GMT
We will always be lacking simply because we have a few more signals than they do.
Plus you will notice that when control of a lines is transferred to a control room, certain signal phones are removed (most recent being the city area) leaving even less opportunity to contact us. The powers that be decided that, should a train be in difficulty, it will be seen much sooner than if the area was not "seen" by the signaller/controller. Clever stuff, considering the signalman at Farringdon was a lot closer to a train in trouble there than we are at Baker Street.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on May 11, 2005 11:41:15 GMT
The powers that be decided that, should a train be in difficulty, it will be seen much sooner than if the area was not "seen" by the signaller/controller. Clever stuff, considering the signalman at Farringdon was a lot closer to a train in trouble there than we are at Baker Street.
----------------------------------------------------------
As the Dowager Duchess said to the Archbishop when reminiscing about their youth "Oh! such balls"
(not you Mr C, the management)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2005 15:02:08 GMT
Plus you will notice that when control of a lines is transferred to a control room, certain signal phones are removed (most recent being the city area) leaving even less opportunity to contact us. The powers that be decided that, should a train be in difficulty, it will be seen much sooner than if the area was not "seen" by the signaller/controller. Clever stuff, considering the signalman at Farringdon was a lot closer to a train in trouble there than we are at Baker Street. IDGI - what is the difference between seen and 'seen'? I agree that removing SPTs is a Bad Idea, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here... |
|
|
|
Post by q8 on May 11, 2005 18:03:14 GMT
]On the Network rail side, all signals are fitted with signal post telephones. It's our side they are lacking.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That is what I was trying to emphasise. If you are desperate need of assistance and stuck somewhere east of Bow (Dagenham East -Elm Park say) then you could use the man line signal post phone to get aid.
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on May 11, 2005 19:47:00 GMT
IDGI - what is the difference between seen and 'seen'? I agree that removing SPTs is a Bad Idea, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here... Sorry, was in a bit of a hurry this morning! Control rooms tend to see the big picture - with often most if not all of a line being viewed on one diagram. Individual signal cabins tend to have boundaries and "gaps" between each of them and so these areas are not "seen." Therefore, in management's eyes, a control room could see more, and detect a train that was stationary sooner than in a small area of a signal cabin, plus the advantage of being able to see "between" the cabins. But of course, such control rooms simply take over the areas previously controlled by cabins, and the "gaps" are after all signalled with auto-signals so don't have phones anyway, so nothing is really gained. In the case of the city area, the cabins virtually overlapped anyway, with no gaps in train monitoring. But they still removed a selection of signal phones. One example is the multi-home signalled area on the approach to King's Cross westbound. Each of these signals did at one time have a phone on it, but after re-signalling some were removed. Confused still? I did say it was management's choice and not that of the people running the railway! |
|
Once the Picc was due to go to the higher penalty levels, the broken piece was returned, and the Northern had the problems. After this happened a few times, LU got wise to the fact and warned Tubelines. Unfortunately the part became defective again, so Tubelines made a midnight raid on SSL and nicked the part from them, hence the problems on the H&C, Circle and Met lines ;D ;D ;D
