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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 16:04:48 GMT
just wondering how some things used to be done historicaly.
When the bakerloo opened initially between edgeware road and baker street was there enought accomdation at London road to statble all trains, or did some have to be berthed in platforms?
Was all servicing carried out at london road or did trains have to be transfered bu road for major overhauls?
As the laine extended to the west, ie paddington did london road still have sufficient capacity.
When the line extended to watford, but before the link was bilt to stanmore at baker street, where did everything stable then? I dont think Queens park and London road woual have provided sufficient capacity. Also was stock transfered to Acton at all for work, if so how?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 18:23:36 GMT
just wondering how some things used to be done historicaly. Was all servicing carried out at london road or did trains have to be transfered bu road for major overhauls? At that time moving trains by road would have been a major undertaking, so I would not expect whole cars, once delivered, to have left the Bakerloo until it reached Queens Park (and a link to other railways). But parts overhaul was shared out between the combine's facilities. Some use was made of the depot at Croxley for tube trains. Acton Works did not open until the early 1920s (used for Bakerloo trains from 1924): until the Baker St-Finchley Road link was built, stock was run over the LMSR - from Willesden Junction (LL) up to the High Level, then reverse and over either the NSWJ (now NLL) to Gunnersbury, or the WLL via Addison Road to Earls Court Court, thence the District - both routes were suitable electrified, I don't know which was used (or if both were). |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 4, 2011 19:19:26 GMT
At that time moving trains by road would have been a major undertaking, so I would not expect whole cars, once delivered, to have left the Bakerloo How did they get there in the first place? Many LER cars were built abroad (Hungary and France). Were they delivered complete or in knocked down form? (flatpacked!) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 19:20:45 GMT
Were they delivered complete or in knocked down form? (flatpacked!) Does IKEA make trains  Could've been a lift, similiar to the one Waterloo and City had/has |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 19:44:58 GMT
There was (still is?) a ramp down into London Road depot. I imagine the cars came by rail more or less complete (just lacking things like shoe beams) to a goods depot as close as possible, with road (which meant traction engines or loads of horses!) for the last lap.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 4, 2011 19:50:44 GMT
At that time moving trains by road would have been a major undertaking, so I would not expect whole cars, once delivered, to have left the Bakerloo How did they get there in the first place? Many LER cars were built abroad (Hungary and France). Were they delivered complete or in knocked down form? (flatpacked!) They were usually delivered by rail between match wagons. They would have been craned off of the ships onto the dockside railway. The underground stock would probably have come in via the London docks where the necessary connections were already in place. In the case of lines without a main line connection they would be delivered to the nearest suitable goods yard and transfered by road probably behind a traction engine but only for a short distance. The W&C had some stock built in America, this was delivered to Southampton CKD and assembled at Eastleigh, the main LSWR works near Southampton and delivered between match trucks as stated above. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 20:17:57 GMT
I know it was possible to deliver by road in to london road depot.
how many trains could london road hold, more than now?
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 4, 2011 21:35:19 GMT
There's a lovely photo of horses drawing tube cars into Morden Depot (so about 1926) though how common this was,and how they got thus far (surely not horses the whole way!) I do not know...
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 4, 2011 22:09:13 GMT
how many trains could london road hold, more than now? The earliest (1917) Bakerloo TT I can lay my hands on has 9 morning starters form London Road. Although I do have a note that there were the following trains in service in 1907 - 5.15am - 7.30am 8 3-car @ 2x4min, 6x4½min
- 7.30am - 10.30am 8 3-car, 8 5-car @8x2min, 8x2½min
- 10.30am - 4.30pm 10 3-car @ 3½min
- 4.30pm - 8.0pm 8 3-car, 8 5-car @8x2min, 8x2½min
- 8.0pm - 10.45pm 8 3-car @ 2x4min, 6x4½min
- 10.45pm - finish 8 3-car, 4 5-car @ 3 min
with a note that 'in the busy service the two minute interval will be between the three car and the 2½ minute interval will be between the 5 car trains'. This dates from December 1907 when the service was accelerated, and the northern terminus was Edgware Road - make of that what you will, but I suspect that the maximum capacity of 8 3-car and 8 5-car trains would have the capability to stable one train in each of the sidings at Elephant: looking at the 1907 signalling diagram the sidings were separately track circuited from the platforms. Pending actually seeing a timetable, I suspect that 8 trains were stabled at London Road, but can't really be any more definite than that! HTH. |
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Post by tedbarclay on Jan 4, 2011 22:12:09 GMT
The initial rolling stock for the Baker Street & Waterloo Railway was delivered by road. It was lowered down the ramp into London Road depot during the night in the later part of 1905 and early in 1906.
On at least one occasion the kit (I believe it was a traction engine) delivering a carriage broke down. It blocked the London County Council (LCC) tram tracks through the morning rush hour. It is documented that the LCC copped for a large amount of compensation :-)
I don't have my notes to hand, but when I can next access them I'll let you know the date.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 4, 2011 22:22:59 GMT
Certainly after the Great War the railway companies had motor lorries that were able to tow trailers, formerly horse-drawn exclusively, and these could have been used to tow railway vehicles on suitable trailers. This was of course before the railway's Mechanical Horses: Commer Cob, Scammell M-H, etc. I can imagine that before the war steam traction was indeed used for heavy haulage. Horses would have proven useful for short trips and possibly maneuvering.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 4, 2011 22:27:47 GMT
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 4, 2011 22:47:16 GMT
The 1906 Bakerloo stock was assembled at Trafford Park and was delivered by rail, for that reason the motors were not fitted to the power cars until they reached their destination. It would be interesting to find out to which goods depot they were delivered to and their route to the depot. It would be impossible to deliver tube cars by any other means than by rail at the time except over very short distances. The mechanical horses used by the railways would be to light for such a load. The only lorries that could transport such a load only came into use in the mid 20's. Before then steam traction engines or sometimes horses would have been used.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 4, 2011 22:58:25 GMT
I have found a photograph of the 1906 stock at Trafford Park being shunted. There is at least 8 or 9 cars making up the train ready for delivery. I don't have a scanner unfortunately so I can't show it.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 5, 2011 12:57:09 GMT
To tie up some of the queries raised in this thread, I can say that London Road could not have accommodated all Bakerloo trains as ordered. The stock was ordered as 18 x 6-car trains. You could have squeezed 10 of these in London Road plus a few odd cars as some sidings were too short for a full length train. There was a full maintenance setup there, including a paint shop!
Cars must have been stored at both the line ends. It was not unusual in those days to outstable trains at termini and in the sidings beyond (if available). They could have got four trains at each end - two in the platforms and two in the tunnels beyond.
The Bakerloo and Hampstead cars were delivered to Camden Town by the LNWR and shipped from there by road, one at a time, like they still do today. The Picc cars were delivered to Tilbury and then hauled by locomotive to Lillie Bridge. Both the Picc and Bakerloo were short of depot space and the Picc ended up storing cars at Golders Green and South Harrow. The Picc's heavy maintenance was done at Ealing Common for a time.
I should add that all this was before the depot at Queens Park opened in 1915.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2011 18:56:30 GMT
That seems very tight on stabling, with every where used, no spare sidings. Were there sidings any where other than London road, and the two terminii?
When the bakerloo was jsut running between Queens park and Elephant after the jubilee split, it needed london road, queens park, stonbridge park and the sidings at elephant for stabling.
In about 1915 it was running out to Watford with just London road, queens park and elephant sidings for stabling, how did it cope?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 5, 2011 18:59:25 GMT
I may have had fewer trains to stable. The current stock is about 35?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2011 19:07:50 GMT
Certainly, cars were taken from Trafford Park to Camden Town via the LNWR, there is a photo of a line of cars hauled by an 0-6-0 Locomotive in The Bakerloo Line - An Illustrated History, by Mike Horne.
It goes on to explain that 108 cars were shipped from ACF [American Car Foundry] in a dismantled state to Trafford Park, where they were assembled and tranferred to Camden Road Goods depot and thence onward by using road bogies hauled by horses. First car arrived on 12th September 1905, before London Road was even finished. It confirms that tram services were sometimes held up as the wagons negotiated the sharp corner and ramp into the depot!
Opening to Queens Park stretched the rolling stock allocation, so 14 more cars were ordered, 12 motors and 2 trailers, and used a number of spare cars off the Piccadilly. 10 of the new cars built by Brush, the other 4 by Leeds Forge.
The book is well worth buying, and has probably been vastly updated since I got mine!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 5, 2011 21:33:02 GMT
I may have had fewer trains to stable. The current stock is about 35? Tubeprune says that there are 37 x 7car trains (33 Mark 2s and the rest Mark 1s) - this makes 259 cars, rather more than the original fleet of 108 |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 5, 2011 22:19:19 GMT
I would have thought there would be fewer than 33 Mk2 units as that was the original order and some (a few actually) have been scrapped after collisions! I am happy to be corrected however....
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 5, 2011 23:46:21 GMT
There are 32 Mk2s, and 4 Mk1s (including 4-car unit 3266, which is actually half Mk2). Three Mk2 units, two 4-car and one 3-car, were damaged in accidents, but cars from them were used in 3266 and 3299.
Only 5 Mk2 cars have been scrapped. They were 3539-4539 (1994 Harrow & Wealdstone accident), 3249-4249 (1994 Picc Circus) and 3257 (1996 Picc Circus)
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