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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 18:11:56 GMT
I travelled on the central line recently and noticed that the train was going really slowly from Leytonstone to Wanstead. I was sitting behind the driver and you could hear clicking, brakes on, clicking after 3 seconds, brakes off, clicking again and brakes on after 5 seconds.
So my question is why the slow speed? Also is this the "coasting" function? how easy is it to change linespeed like this, a click of a button from the control room?
Thanks all!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 18:27:48 GMT
If it was going slowly, then it was probably in restricted manual. The clicking was could well be the TBC being put back to coast, after braking.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 18:38:31 GMT
While I was waiting for an Epping service a few days back I saw a Hainualt training leaving. The train was in ATO as the driver pressed the two buttons. The train accelerated till about half the cars were out of the station and then the motors cut out and it coasted into the tunnel.
It wasn't just this train either, I've taken a few trips recently and they all seem to be going very slowly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 18:41:42 GMT
I'd put bets on it being a TSR then. The train won't motor if it's at the target speed.
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Post by trainopd78 on Dec 16, 2010 19:09:33 GMT
I'm certain its a TSR as the target speed is a lot slower than I remember when I was road training.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 19:44:11 GMT
Does anybody know why it's been slowed down?
Also is this an easy process to change the TSR, can it be done from centre?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 19:47:00 GMT
I'd imagine sticking in a TSR would be bloody easy, just by selecting a block and setting the maximum target speed to the TSR.
But I'm not one to know the full ins and outs of the Westinghouse system there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 19:52:16 GMT
Am I right in thinking the Central Line can't coast in ATO?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 20:05:41 GMT
They can coast, if the facility is switched on at control.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 16, 2010 20:32:10 GMT
It seems like a TSR - I went through there a couple of weeks ago, and it was much quicker than what it would be in restricted manual. Now that IS slow!
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Post by auxsetreq on Dec 16, 2010 22:00:58 GMT
It's an irritating 35kph TSR that has been partially, albeit, slightly reduced in length since it was introduced. Now full speed to the tunnel mouth and then the 35 kicks in until the train leaves Wanstead inner. It's been in for a couple of weeks now, but for what reason I don't know.
Coasting commands are uploaded from the PAC at each platform. They are used by Wood Lane to increase the journey time between stations to regulate the service. It's this feature of the signalling that is used to limit the speed of the trains to 85 on a 100kph section. Coasting commands are not the same as speed restrictions, temporary or permanent. Coasting commands only affect the trains in ATO. Speed restrictions are imposed electronically and affect the trains in both ATO and manual. Restricted manual is set at 15kph.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 16, 2010 23:15:51 GMT
I'd imagine sticking in a TSR would be bloody easy, just by selecting a block and setting the maximum target speed to the TSR. The Control Centre can impose a 1TSR (i.e. a code 1 TSR) on any inter-station run, but it applies to the whole distance between the two stations. The Technical Officers have keyswitches in each Signalling Equipment Room where they can impose 1, 3, or 8 TSRs on individual blocks. Coasting is available on each run between stations, with the start and end points set in the ATO data. However, at the moment coasting isn't used anywhere on the line.
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Post by d7666 on Dec 17, 2010 20:18:27 GMT
Coasting commands are uploaded from the PAC at each platform. They are used by Wood Lane to increase the journey time between stations to regulate the service. It's this feature of the signalling that is used to limit the speed of the trains to 85 on a 100kph section. I am afraid that is incorrect on all 3 points. No coasting commands are uploaded from PACs because no coasting commands are used on the Central Line. Regulation in this sense (ATR) is not done because ATR is switched off, and has not been used for years. No coasting is commanded by Wood Lane or anywhere else; ATO data does not contain any that are used. 85 km/h line wide speed limit in ATO mode is implemented by train borne equipment firmware; this was exchanged when the 85 km/h limit was imposed. It may have been true that some or all of what you describe is in the system design and/or may or may not have been used to varying extent in the past but none of it is in use today nor have been in use for quite some time. There is a high level overview suggestion of a rumour of a chinese whisper that ATR in some different form could play a future part in energy savings - both reducing traction kA draw and supply kVA demand - through increased coasting, with possibly different degrees of regulation for peak, off peak and weekends running, but this philosophy requires very very different algorithms to anything used before. -- Nick
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Post by auxsetreq on Dec 18, 2010 6:13:26 GMT
Coasting commands are uploaded from the PAC at each platform. They are used by Wood Lane to increase the journey time between stations to regulate the service. It's this feature of the signalling that is used to limit the speed of the trains to 85 on a 100kph section. I am afraid that is incorrect on all 3 points. No coasting commands are uploaded from PACs because no coasting commands are used on the Central Line. Regulation in this sense (ATR) is not done because ATR is switched off, and has not been used for years. No coasting is commanded by Wood Lane or anywhere else; ATO data does not contain any that are used. 85 km/h line wide speed limit in ATO mode is implemented by train borne equipment firmware; this was exchanged when the 85 km/h limit was imposed. It may have been true that some or all of what you describe is in the system design and/or may or may not have been used to varying extent in the past but none of it is in use today nor have been in use for quite some time. There is a high level overview suggestion of a rumour of a chinese whisper that ATR in some different form could play a future part in energy savings - both reducing traction kA draw and supply kVA demand - through increased coasting, with possibly different degrees of regulation for peak, off peak and weekends running, but this philosophy requires very very different algorithms to anything used before. -- Nick Indeed I am wrong on all three points. We were initially told that the 85 was achieved via a coasting command, but by coincidence I was asking one of our seconded Ashtray House instructors about it yesterday and he confirms what you say. It was something done to the train's mind. Latest on the Boffin Frequencies - At a diverging junction should a train get a 208 MHz frequency to Luxembourg instead of a 247 algorithm to The Light Program it'll fade in and out as it passes over the points Going Down Town with Petula Clark...........
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 17:58:13 GMT
Seems to back to full speed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2010 19:35:07 GMT
Would central line drivers do more manual driving if they could?
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Post by plasmid on Dec 26, 2010 19:45:21 GMT
Seems to back to full speed. Can't be! I travelled from Leyton to Gants Hill and it was as slow as hell just as it entered the tunnel towards Wanstead!! This was about 20:30pm. Track work perhaps? The track is quite poor on that stretch but then smooth after Wanstead. Would central line drivers do more manual driving if they could? They can only proceed in manual on Green light and with Controller permission I think. They should be allowed to do this on the Epping stretch for example up to Leytonstone. During the last strike, Central Line drivers appeared to be driving in manual through the city. My driver seemed to be able to maintain full speed on the stretches whilst braking smoothly into the stations. And as he entered Livepool Street Eastbound he didn't accelerate (as the trains in ATO would have normally done). Maybe that is something that can't be done in manual.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2010 19:54:31 GMT
Coded manual works exactly the same as ATO does- they can proceed under a white light, as the ATP has exactly the same safeguards as it does over the ATO system.
There's nothing that can't be done in CM that can be done in ATO.
As far as I'm aware, tunnel sections have to be ATO unless controller says so, and outside sections being CM at any time the driver chooses. Pretty damn advisable in wet/ice/snow/leaves.
Of course, I'm welcome to correction on any of this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2010 20:02:39 GMT
It sounds almost like the DLR - manual driving only Sunday mornings or when control tells you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2010 20:03:48 GMT
Oh yes- and they have to drive in CM outside sections on sundays!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 10:52:05 GMT
I think ATO has to be selected from Leytonstone going westbound. I saw a notice by the drivers door on is it Platform 3? The one most Hainault trains run into. Well the notice has CM with a slash through it as well as large text saying select ATO now. There was loads of small text but I couldn't read it.
I didn't know the driver could choose to run in CM in open sections. I thought it was only on Sundays or if control asked.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 10:56:55 GMT
If drivers couldn't choose to run in CM in the open, when it's a little wet there would be a lot more platform overruns!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2010 15:47:29 GMT
Seems to back to full speed. Can't be! I travelled from Leyton to Gants Hill and it was as slow as hell just as it entered the tunnel towards Wanstead!! This was about 20:30pm. Track work perhaps? The track is quite poor on that stretch but then smooth after Wanstead. Would central line drivers do more manual driving if they could? They can only proceed in manual on Green light and with Controller permission I think. They should be allowed to do this on the Epping stretch for example up to Leytonstone. During the last strike, Central Line drivers appeared to be driving in manual through the city. My driver seemed to be able to maintain full speed on the stretches whilst braking smoothly into the stations. And as he entered Livepool Street Eastbound he didn't accelerate (as the trains in ATO would have normally done). Maybe that is something that can't be done in manual. There is no "manual" option as such, in the sense that they cannot drive at normal speed just by observing normal signals - the driver responds to the ATP codes, and drives accordingly. The only time a driver can drive purely by sight and without codes is in restricted manual - and that is limited to about 10mph. As for entering Liverpool Street - ATO is programmed to drive the train at the highest possible speed for any section. Before Liverpool Street on the eastbound, there is a programmed speed limit over the crossover. After the train has paased over this, the speed limit is lifted, which means that the train accelerates for a short time before it reaches the braking point for the station stop. A "human" driver could accelerate the train in the same way - in fact, it is possible to drive in the same way as the ATO would. However, most drivers would simply coast to a stop in the platform, as it seems a bit silly to accelerate sharply, then brake sharply soon after.
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Post by auxsetreq on Dec 30, 2010 16:58:55 GMT
*Anywhere* east of Leytonstone and west of White City it's optional CM or ATO. ( Nice in the summer to have the side door open with a breeze up my gusset and my comb-over flapping about like Olly Murr's legs. ) On Sundays it supposed to be compulsory. Be expected to drive the train at full speed in CM on any part of the line for whatever reason - ie ATO withdrawn, ATO interruption - very common. One can slightly out-run ATO by driving to MSS, so long as you know what MSS goes with what codes, a bit pointless really as life's short enough as it is.........
I tell you something though, all ATO has ever done, on that line at least, is to wreck the trains. Whether it's a inch or a mile, it's full on, full off. Hello, what's that on the deck? As someone who's worked crew on the 62s, opo on the 92's low to high performance manual to ATO, it's technology for the sake of it with, as far as I can see, very little benefit for the passengers as they get thrown about all over the place. And, it causes havoc with door proving, so much so that one has to drive in CM giving the train's take-off a little less welly. Still, I wouldn't go back to full time driving for anything. Bit too long in the moob for that................
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 12:06:51 GMT
Does anyone know if drivers are allowed and required to drive 2009 Stock Victoria line trains at full speed when required?
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Post by superteacher on Jan 3, 2011 12:20:30 GMT
Does anyone know if drivers are allowed and required to drive 2009 Stock Victoria line trains at full speed when required? I think this was discussed somewhere else. It won't happen until all of the new stock is delivered.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 20:55:15 GMT
Can confirm having sat on the Central Line between Liverpool Street and Barkingside earlier today at around 3:30pm, the Central Line was travelling at normal speeds between Leytonstone and Wanstead
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 22:06:59 GMT
Thanks to: Auxsetreq. Was trying to explain to my mates today that Central Line drivers can choose to drive in Manual or ATO but they wernt believing me
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Post by Bighat on Jan 29, 2011 23:29:29 GMT
Can confirm having sat on the Central Line between Liverpool Street and Barkingside earlier today at around 3:30pm, the Central Line was travelling at normal speeds between Leytonstone and Wanstead And was last Thursday when I rode it between Bethnal Green and Redbridge, not to mention an earlier journey the previous weekend!
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