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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 10:35:21 GMT
I just read on the TFL website about plans to upgrade the signalling on the District. Without wishing to go into rant mode, is it the same type of signalling that is proving to be a shambles on the Jubilee Line?
Will its installation mean more shutdowns at weekends as I don't think us passengers can take much more in the way of no service.
I won't ask why the track upgrade and signalling weren't planned to coincide.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 13:01:26 GMT
This is yet to be decided. It makes sense to use Jubilee-style signalling on the District if it will be sorted out. And I'm pretty sure it is possible, as Jubilee will use same signalling that works fine for DLR - from various documents I read it looks like the issue is mostly not with the signalling but with inefficient installation/switch programme by Tube Lines.
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 25, 2010 13:23:56 GMT
I thought the plan was to upgrade the signalling on all the SSR lines and they'd already put the deal out to tender. This seems to agree with me, and imply that closures would be kept to a minimum. It should be done by 2016, so long enough away to forget the Jubilee Line upgrade disaster ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 13:49:57 GMT
Yes 2016 - that's what worries me. How many more years of weekend closures ? I have no idea what's involved, but could it all to be installed in parallel with the existing equipment and then commissioned and switched over? No chance I reckon.
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 25, 2010 15:38:22 GMT
That was what the proposal I saw at some point was basically planning on doing... do the majority of it overnight, in engineering hours.
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Post by twa on Nov 4, 2010 12:35:18 GMT
I just read on the TFL website about plans to upgrade the signalling on the District. Without wishing to go into rant mode, is it the same type of signalling that is proving to be a shambles on the Jubilee Line? Will its installation mean more shutdowns at weekends as I don't think us passengers can take much more in the way of no service. I won't ask why the track upgrade and signalling weren't planned to coincide. It will not be the Seltrac system that is being installed on the Jubilee, as i believe the 2 final bidders are Invensys (DTGR as on teh Vic ) and Bombadier (no idea what their system is) |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 4, 2010 15:15:56 GMT
No doubt the weekend closures for resignalling will start when the track replacement work finishes - if it ever does. A classic last Saturday, District Line right out from Embankment to Upney and no Jubilee Line in east London either. Then they'll be the S Stock preparatory work to come too.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 4, 2010 18:31:05 GMT
Given that at least some of the S stock perparatory work is signal immunisation, we can hope that the new kit comes pre-immunised.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 4, 2010 18:48:42 GMT
I'm sure iot was written somewhere that it was planned to integrate the pic upgrade aswell into it. Seemed a very sensible thing to do.
But why can't London just have one universal signalling system...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 20:09:28 GMT
Given that at least some of the S stock perparatory work is signal immunisation, we can hope that the new kit comes pre-immunised. That's because of the AC track circuits and the static converters on the S stock. The newer stuff works right out with that, because they use quite a different form of track circuit, based on jointless rails and impedance bonds. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 4, 2010 20:36:28 GMT
I won't ask why the track upgrade and signalling weren't planned to coincide. Well if you ain't asking, I ain't answering!!  ;D ;D Basically S stock needs newer track or it'll bounce off, so we need the new track installed right now. The signalling is also being immunised (involves new cabling and track circuits) though this isn't the same as a full on resignal which is what you are talking about. S stock is not reliant on the full resignal being in place, just the immunisation. Have a look at the quote below and my reply to cso - hopefully you'll see why the full on re-signalling isn't being done yet. I thought the plan was to upgrade the signalling on all the SSR lines and they'd already put the deal out to tender. This seems to agree with me, and imply that closures would be kept to a minimum. The resignalling contract was pulled and put out for re-tender (I don't know the ins and outs of why), so yes it is currently out to tender, but this is the second time of going through that process AIUI. Also, the new signalling system for all of SSR will be controlled from a new location in West London - there were some planning permission delays for that building and so that part of the jigsaw is way behind schedule anyway - good job S stock isn't reliant on it!! Then they'll be the S Stock preparatory work to come too. A lot of that is currently going on at various places around the District line - we have the benefit of getting things done differently as mistakes are learned on the Metropolitan line   But why can't London just have one universal signalling system... The answer to that is the recently abandoned PPP. The two companies, Tubelies and Metromess (sorry, Tubelines and Metronet), were free to choose which signalling systems were implemented when upgrading a given lines signalling system.... |
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Post by citysig on Nov 4, 2010 21:29:48 GMT
The new signalling location in west London will be (in fact is being) built. Whether it remains an empty shell for some years, or whether certain (less expensive to move) aspects of Service Control are moved there is not currently known.
The likelihood (last I heard anyway) is that the sub-surface railways will be moved into the new centre with more or less the signalling they have now - with capacity to install new kit afterwards.
One thing that has always been evident from the various meetings / mock-ups etc. is that management on SSR are keen to "sit back and wait" for the various upgrades on other lines to prove themselves, before entering into any specific design of signalling. Yes the financial climate amongst other things have also set things back, but there is still a cautious approach to what will be chosen - not least to avoid the sort of lengthy delays the Jubilee has suffered.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2010 19:32:12 GMT
The resignalling contract was pulled and put out for re-tender (I don't know the ins and outs of why), so yes it is currently out to tender, but this is the second time of going through that process AIUI. Basically due to the collapse of Metronet as I understand it. So another PPP failure. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2010 23:05:34 GMT
according to Mike Brown, the SSR signalling contract is to have 0 weekend closures. Quite how he intends that this will happen, I don't know, but that's the aspiration anyway
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 14, 2010 1:03:37 GMT
I don't think anyone with any experience of signalling upgrades would have made such a statement - especially considering the track alterations (which cannot be done in engineering hours alone) as part of the resignalling.
It's a nice idea but I think the people making statements like that aren't fully aware of the realities of doing works on this scale and doubt that they have seriously thought about how things will be done without weekend closures.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 14, 2010 14:14:24 GMT
I suppose it might be possible to weasel out of that if there no weekend closures solely for the SSR resignalling - even if the only other work is one bloke with a paintbrush in a ticket office. Bordering on the completely dishonest and completely not withing the spirit of the statement, but that hasn't stopped them before.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 14:54:18 GMT
I suppose it might be possible to weasel out of that if there no weekend closures solely for the SSR resignalling - even if the only other work is one bloke with a paintbrush in a ticket office. Bordering on the completely dishonest and completely not withing the spirit of the statement, but that hasn't stopped them before. Certainly hasn't. This is management at its best, innit?   |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 14, 2010 17:26:19 GMT
As it happens, I think the intention will be to have more long term closures rather than lots of 52-hour ones. How many of these may include weekends is yet to be seen!
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Post by londonstuff on Nov 14, 2010 17:33:02 GMT
I don't think anyone with any experience of signalling upgrades would have made such a statement - especially considering the track alterations (which cannot be done in engineering hours alone) as part of the resignalling. It's a nice idea but I think the people making statements like that aren't fully aware of the realities of doing works on this scale and doubt that they have seriously thought about how things will be done without weekend closures. - if there was to be a longer-term closure for parts of a line, e.g. the Earl's Court to Edgware Road branch how long, roughly, do you think a line could be resignalled and tested in? A couple of weeks maybe? Three? Four? I'm guessing contractors would much prefer this method as it saves them having to lug everything down and then out again after only a couple of days, leading to a considerable saving in time? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 17:44:24 GMT
Also less short-term stress. I think it'll be better in the long run, but hell to pay in the short run  |
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Post by citysig on Nov 14, 2010 19:47:51 GMT
Tom - if there was to be a longer-term closure for parts of a line, e.g. the Earl's Court to Edgware Road branch how long, roughly, do you think a line could be resignalled and tested in? A couple of weeks maybe? Three? Four? Funny you should mention that. High Street Ken (well a little east of there) through to Paddington is to be ripped up, fully re-laid and re-signalled next summer over a 4 week closure - much as happened this year on the Hammersmith branch. In terms of the signal upgrade involving no major closures (which is what I think Mr Brown may have meant) the new signalling (or should I say the new place that will control the old signalling - that is still an "upgrade") will probably be brought in behind the current system and switched over during a few weekends - without too many visible closures. A bit like a duplicate system running with the old system shadowing it for a while until all glitches have been ironed out. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 20:29:24 GMT
Tom - if there was to be a longer-term closure for parts of a line, e.g. the Earl's Court to Edgware Road branch how long, roughly, do you think a line could be resignalled and tested in? A couple of weeks maybe? Three? Four? Funny you should mention that. High Street Ken (well a little east of there) through to Paddington is to be ripped up, fully re-laid and re-signalled next summer over a 4 week closure - much as happened this year on the Hammersmith branch. That's 9 months of doom/gloom it will never work you've set up there Met Control !!! service wise , the trickiest part of this scenario will be timetabling HSK bays when ramping up the service in the morning and ramping down after the pm peak when you will have in effect 3 services competing for 2 bays for an hour or so careful re-adjustment of the Olympia shuttle ought to be able to overcome this |
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 14, 2010 20:50:59 GMT
service wise , the trickiest part of this scenario will be timetabling HSK bays when ramping up the service in the morning and ramping down after the pm peak when you will have in effect 3 services competing for 2 bays for an hour or so careful re-adjustment of the Olympia shuttle ought to be able to overcome this Dead easy IMO. ;D Little bit of tweaking and the odd e and f peppered around should sort that without too much problem - unless SPAD mitigation works have slowed the job up. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 20:59:21 GMT
service wise , the trickiest part of this scenario will be timetabling HSK bays when ramping up the service in the morning and ramping down after the pm peak when you will have in effect 3 services competing for 2 bays for an hour or so I thought you could turn trains back towards Triangle via platform 2 too? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 21:09:28 GMT
service wise , the trickiest part of this scenario will be timetabling HSK bays when ramping up the service in the morning and ramping down after the pm peak when you will have in effect 3 services competing for 2 bays for an hour or so I thought you could turn trains back towards Triangle via platform 2 too? I would imagine pfm 2 would be for the exclusive use of the circle line service in this scenario |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 21:12:57 GMT
service wise , the trickiest part of this scenario will be timetabling HSK bays when ramping up the service in the morning and ramping down after the pm peak when you will have in effect 3 services competing for 2 bays for an hour or so careful re-adjustment of the Olympia shuttle ought to be able to overcome this Dead easy IMO. ;D Little bit of tweaking and the odd e and f peppered around should sort that without too much problem - unless SPAD mitigation works have slowed the job up. dead easy for the main part perhaps, but it's always the isolated area or one trip that can mess things up look at 06.35-07.09 where 9 trains will need to reverse via the bays, including the first OLY of the day which should be tied down to it's booked slot ex ECT WB |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 14, 2010 22:01:29 GMT
dead easy for the main part perhaps, but it's always the isolated area or one trip that can mess things up look at 06.35-07.09 where 9 trains will need to reverse via the bays, including the first OLY of the day which should be tied down to it's booked slot ex ECT WB What's stopping that OLY running early and standing at ECT for a while, just out of interest - is it still 07a02 with the three Wimbos one after another into pfm4? Is there much of a loading on that first outbound OLY? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 22:06:45 GMT
Would it be possible to reduce the Ken O shuttle to every 30 mins during this time or maybe keep it to the same frequency but run it to Mansion House as it has a (from what i've seen) a little used bay platform.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 22:17:03 GMT
first OLY is still 7a02 ex ECT, the issue that I can see is the reversing capacity in general at HSK in that on top of the C stock reversers (6 tph), you have train 23 and 24 occupying HSK bays 642 - 656 with the first OLY showing its face at 6.52 1/2 on a 6 minute layover
I think the solution may be to run one of 23/24 earlier ex ECMDTE and reverse at Mans House, with a minor adjustment to another District ECT - MANSH - ECT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 22:23:30 GMT
Would it be possible to reduce the Ken O shuttle to every 30 mins during this time or maybe keep it to the same frequency but run it to Mansion House as it has a (from what i've seen) a little used bay platform. good idea re OLY shuttle ex MANSH - but I think there 'may' be 2 reasons why this wouldn't work i) - not sure of the exact details, I'm sure someone else can elaborate but don't think you can signal from Gloucs Rd to OLY using program machine roll? Think it would need a manual move every trip? ii) - may cost extra trains that aren't available? This is only an issue for a few hours either side of the peaks when HSK bays reverse trains going on to/coming off the peak service, to and from the Wimbledon branch a thinned OLY at 30 mins (or less frequent than normal) could be an option? |
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