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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2010 22:39:17 GMT
An interesting discussion, this one!
While I totally understand that all the extraneous information relating to empty runs, set numbers etc in a WTT may be of little or no interest to the general public, I do find it surprising that the data should be shrouded with the privacy cloak and having already been created and published for operatives it does seem curious that it is kept unavailable to the paying customers.
I have heard all sorts of casually given supposed explanations/daft excuses, from risk of security threats to the fact that sometimes trains get delayed and so the information might be misleading - but this has never stopped railway companies or bus companies in many areas from offering published timetables that at least give us an idea of what to expect. A simple disclaimer about services being subject to change and the document being for general reference only would naturally waive those accuracy/reliability concerns anyway.
In some stations departure information is already printed on a board anyway - for example you can see a complete list on the Olympia platform and at Earl's Court Warwick Road entrance. (I believe there may be a similar board at Wimbledon?)
I suppose cost was traditionally considered a barrier to issuing printed copies and thought that the administration involved in printing & supplying paid copies would not be worth it.
Well now, of course, we could just ask that a PDF/Excel version is made available online for those enthusiasts who would like to know more about their public transport service. After all, given the effort that goes into creating Acton Town open days and seeing the sale of everything from moquette cushions to door warning labels there's clearly an awareness of the interest people have in the system and a full timetable hardly seems like a radical or perverse request!
So who would we ask about the possibility of this information being released, I wonder? Someone at the PR side? One of the signatory names from the latest printed WTT/SWB? Or someone involved in the London Datastore team?
Any suggestions welcome.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 25, 2010 0:36:59 GMT
Thing is though, for the most part we offer a 'turn and go' service where the exact timings of trains aren't all that relevant. Of course there are exceptions such as the single line branch shuttles, and most of the Metropolitan line, but where you have a train every 2-7 minutes, do you really need to have a copy of the timetable?
Just a point I thought might be worth making.
As for the excuses side of things, the forum staff do have to maintain a certain position with this sort of thing, particularly as some of us are LU employees. The timetables are marked 'private - for staff use only' so regardless of the reasons why they are so marked, we cannot ignore that fact. Therefore the proper route for obtaining such information as far as this forum is concerned is a Freedom of Information request.
Another point I thought was worth making.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 25, 2010 1:01:05 GMT
I think it depends on what people want to use the timetable for. Most requests I have had are about specific times of day so the whole timetable is not required. However some might want it as a part of a collection so I might suggest having a look on ebay: shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A3443&rt=nc&_nkw=working%20timetables&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1513&_pgn=1None of these are current. I am dubious if under the Freedom of Information a current timetable will be made available so I am interested if anyone has actually made and succeeded in such a request. Personally I always had my own copy and that was mainly because the station copy would go missing. I would visit the mail room and ask politely. I think the sensible thing would be to have copies on sale at the Transport museum and those people who wanted them could buy them. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 25, 2010 1:58:50 GMT
The timetables are marked 'private - for staff use only' so regardless of the reasons why they are so marked, we cannot ignore that fact. I take and agree with that point, and I guess most other commenters in this thread do too. However, some think that timetables shouldn't be so marked and are wondering who to send this request/suggestion to. It isn't the sort of question that is suited to an FOI request (although "Why are timetables marked 'private - for staff use only'?" might be). Do you know who decides that the timetables are restricted in this way? The timetable office? Do you have an opinion regarding whether the publicity office would have a significant voice in any discussions about changing the restriction? Even if the current timetables remain private, do you think they might be open to changing the status of non-current timetables? Obviously one off timetables could be marked something like "private - staff only until [future date]", but AIUI standard working timetables have no fixed end date known at the time of publication and so this wording wouldn't work. Do you know of any other material with a similar period of currency that is restricted while current but not when superceded? (I ask this because if there is, referring to it in any request will both explain exactly what is being requested and show there is a precedent). note the "you" in this thread is not specifically Colin but anyone who knows. ps: this discussion has broadened from a specific request about a specific District Line working timetable to working timetables in general. Should a new thread be started/split or the topic be moved? |
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Post by splashdown on Oct 25, 2010 2:47:37 GMT
(although "Why are timetables marked 'private - for staff use only'?" might be). I would guess: Because the trains never run to the timetable as officially written down.  If customers were to use the TT they could make claims against LUL for missing appointments, meetings because they would not give themselves adequate time to arrive. It also should prevent staff selling the books of ebay. Most documents in most companies are considered private. The TT are also for normal running so engineering is supplemented Customers would have to be informed which timetable is being used on any given day. I would suggest you write to the Mayor to get the privacy of this document changed. His office would most likely ignore your letter and forward to LUL customer services who in turn would send you an unsatisfactory non-committal response. You would then have to write again and escalate the request but in reality you would need a whole community of people to get any change to policy. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 3:13:29 GMT
In any case, a passenger TT would be a whole new document IMHO; it wouldn't need all the octal train numbers etc and which siding/bay it reverses in etc etc etc. It would only need to show route, time and stopping pattern.
Furthermore, each station will require a unique TT, meaning lines like the District will have thick books. The result would be hundreds of pages - remember interchanges will need a TT for each line passing through.
OTOH is a passenger TT really needed?
1) LU is a rapid transit railway. Services are not spread out far enough to justify printing hundreds, if not thousands, of pages. EDIT: Colin has already said this.
2) When it all hits the fan, the TT becomes useless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 16:33:30 GMT
I am dubious if under the Freedom of Information a current timetable will be made available so I am interested if anyone has actually made and succeeded in such a request. I made a request a couple of years ago and was successful. I did suggest that they sent me PDF copies but they decided to post paper copies instead. I didn't even have to pay anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 17:04:51 GMT
Well don't worry about splitting the thread on my account - that's pretty much answered it I think. I wasn't asking for a _new_ document, just questioning the reasons why the existing one is so closely guarded and what harm it might do anyone were it not so "private". It would seem as though some contributors find it odd that anyone reading this forum outside of TfL employees might wish to know the line workings, yet the District Dave site itself carries such esoteric documents as signal diagrams for District line stations, intricate descriptions of systems like CSDE and so I'd imagined knowing the daily movements of trains would not be such a controversial subject! I'll leave it there then  |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Oct 25, 2010 18:21:33 GMT
Speaking from a bus driver POV, timetables are widely published, but the running order for a particular driver and his bus doesn't follow the timetable per se. As in I can do one route and that doesn't mean I'll form the next trip on that route, I could be sent somewhere else, and that information isn't public knowledge.
Also, sometimes runs are dropped due to availability of buses and/or drivers, so things are constantly swapped all day long.
In real terms, although on paper I'll have two trips on one route, three on another and perhaps two on a different one on two different buses, it could work out that I do those trips on seven different buses, those routes on the same bus, or a different schedule to pick up missed runs elsewhere while someone covers mine, and switch back at meal break.
Timetables aren't quite what they appear to be....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 19:07:52 GMT
In general, LU don't run a timetabled service from the punters POV; The only published times -in general - are first, last and limited service, OLY, for example.
Reason being is that LU run a 'Metro' service, broadly speaking that means when you turn up on a platform you will be on a train within xx minutes - usually under 10.
Same with London Buses timetables, only published when there is a 'low frequency' service, over 15 mins between buses.
What LU does do, is that they tell you how long a journey should take between two points, i.e., nine minutes between ECT and VIC, if it takes you 20 minutes, I think you can claim against the Customer Charter.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Oct 25, 2010 21:13:50 GMT
Could I ask why on the weekend of 23/24 Oct, there was a last minute change from the same timetable of weekend 17/18 Oct, and D stocks reversed at Parsons Green instead of Putney Bridge?
Oh, and what is being done between Putney and Wimbledon? Looking at the sixth month track closure PDF the suspension seems to be going on for a while.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 1:04:10 GMT
Could I ask why on the weekend of 23/24 Oct, there was a last minute change from the same timetable of weekend 17/18 Oct, and D stocks reversed at Parsons Green instead of Putney Bridge? Oh, and what is being done between Putney and Wimbledon? Looking at the sixth month track closure PDF the suspension seems to be going on for a while. The possession limits were reduced. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 26, 2010 10:14:50 GMT
The possession limits were reduced. . . . which meant that westbound platform3 and the crossover beyond the station could no longer be used. The work is for signal immunisation for the forthcoming S Stock. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 16:47:17 GMT
Could I ask why on the weekend of 23/24 Oct, there was a last minute change from the same timetable of weekend 17/18 Oct, and D stocks reversed at Parsons Green instead of Putney Bridge? Oh, and what is being done between Putney and Wimbledon? Looking at the sixth month track closure PDF the suspension seems to be going on for a while. The possession limits were reduced. Of course I mean extended! |
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Post by metrider on Oct 26, 2010 17:43:12 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 26, 2010 18:37:59 GMT
I know someone has had success making sense of the bus timetable data so it should be possible to do the same for train timetables
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 26, 2010 20:03:54 GMT
There's a thread in here that tells you how to deal with it... it involves using www.dft.gov.uk/transxchange/publisher.htm which will give you a PDF with the timetable in it... it takes about 10 mins on my PC to generate the Met timetable for example. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Oct 26, 2010 22:32:53 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 26, 2010 23:46:45 GMT
Interesting - thank-you for that: it gives a good dataset for some, but not all purposes. The data is in and of itself incomplete - as there are only departure times - making qualitative analysis of run time varia, stand time adjustments and platform reoccupation times almost impossible from the data as presented. Undoubtedly interesting for people who have never seen the complexity of the UndergrounD TTs and (I also find it) slightly thought-provoking too. I shall have to compare the Excel files with the printed books in the fullness of time. Much appreciated; thank-you for the file conversion. Are there any DLR WTTs in the files? |
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Post by flippyff on Oct 29, 2010 23:02:33 GMT
<snip> Are there any DLR WTTs in the files? EDIT: Oops, sorry, missed the 'WTT'! The dataset has buses, tube, tram, dlr and river services and is updated every week according to the blurb on the london.gov.uk website. Hope this helps, Simon |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 30, 2010 8:59:23 GMT
I'm a shade busy a the mo - could a kind soul find and decode the DLR WTTs for me, please (or at least give me the .xml reference).
I'd be everso grateful ;D
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Post by flippyff on Oct 30, 2010 20:28:26 GMT
I'm a shade busy a the mo - could a kind soul find and decode the DLR WTTs for me, please (or at least give me the .xml reference). I'd be everso grateful ;D The three xml files from data.london.gov.uk are : - output_txc_25DLRB.xml output_txc_25DLRL.xml output_txc_25DLRS.xml Your 'WTT' has thrown me as they are public timetables not WTTs. If you want PDFs produced from these three files, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send them back. Simon |
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If customers were to use the TT they could make claims against LUL for missing appointments, meetings because they would not give themselves adequate time to arrive.
. Somebody hit a target by publishing it however.... ;D
