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Post by slidecage on Sept 25, 2010 11:25:30 GMT
I have just read info on the ORR site about the post 2012 WCML prototype timetable. It says that 4tph on the DC lines will be included, with a recast of the Bakerloo line timetable. I was wondering how the Bakerloo would be recast?
Also, it says that the prototype timetable will not include any increase to the Southern service. Does this mean that this improvement will no longer happen, or will it be assessed later?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 25, 2010 12:30:58 GMT
I have just read info on the ORR site about the post 2012 WCML prototype timetable. It says that 4tph on the DC lines will be included, with a recast of the Bakerloo line timetable. I was wondering how the Bakerloo would be recast? The easy answer - which might well have no basis in reality would be to tinker with the stand time at Harrow & W and Queens Park - there's then the 'time separation' of I think two clear minutes in front and four clear minutes behind the two types of rolling stock - there is some minimum standard, and you see trains held to maintain that standard separation - even to the extent of having the occasional odd stand times at Willesden Junction/Stonebridge Park.
It isn't exclusively to do with maintaining even gaps between trains, because the Bakerloo service density is quite variable, and this minimum separation is rigidly maintained (at least paper). |
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Post by harlesden on Sept 25, 2010 12:46:21 GMT
The number of times I've sat for several minutes - on a SB Bakerloo - in Queens Park shed, because not only is there a train already in the platform as we arrive at that point, but the signalman allows the empty train beside us to go ahead and enter the platform first.
A train half full of passengers sitting like lemons watching the adjacent empty train pull out.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 25, 2010 12:53:30 GMT
The number of times I've sat for several minutes - on a SB Bakerloo - in Queens Park shed, because not only is there a train already in the platform as we arrive at that point, but the signalman allows the empty train beside us to go ahead and enter the platform first. Yes - but that's regulation, and I suspect has more to do with getting the trains to Elephant in the right order for ∇ (stepping back) and as such that would only have a vestigial effect on the Overground service. EDIT: I also think (and this is a considered opinion, rather than a random guess) that the Bakerloo trains are quite generously timed south of Stonebridge Park - it's not quite as obvious as a pathing allowance IYSWIM. Very curious. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 11:44:08 GMT
Where on the ORR site is it? I cannot find it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 11:52:02 GMT
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Post by dazz285 on Sept 26, 2010 12:28:01 GMT
A lot of if buts and maybe's for the DC..
The DC should really be 4 tph.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 18:22:25 GMT
I am predicting the DC to go 2tph outside of the peaks as a way of cutting costs. If in years to come they reinstate 4tph the other two will be Bakerloos through to Watford
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Post by andypurk on Sept 26, 2010 20:17:35 GMT
I am predicting the DC to go 2tph outside of the peaks as a way of cutting costs. If in years to come they reinstate 4tph the other two will be Bakerloos through to Watford The cost saving of going from 3tph to 2tph off-peak would be minimal and the revenue lost would probably be more than any money saved. The DC line trains are pretty busy all day long and there are other parts of the TfL network more likely to see cuts in service before the DC service is cut back. In fact, it is interesting that in all the talk of economies to be made, there doesn't seem to have been mention of cuts in train frequency. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 9:56:32 GMT
I do not know about cuts in other parts of the TfL network. I can see there will have to be cuts and during the off peaks changing the DC from 3tph to 2tph I can see will be the easiest way as it will only really affect the passengers north of Harrow. I understand what you say about no mention of train frequency cuts so far, but with the amount of cuts this Government is talking about train services are bound to be hit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 12:03:54 GMT
there's then the 'time separation' of I think two clear minutes in front and four clear minutes behind the two types of rolling stock - there is some minimum standard.
Could someone please explain why there is this "time separation" between the two rolling stocks, could it be something to do if one breaks down and needs a pushout?
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Post by andypurk on Sept 27, 2010 12:04:13 GMT
I do not know about cuts in other parts of the TfL network. I can see there will have to be cuts and during the off peaks changing the DC from 3tph to 2tph I can see will be the easiest way as it will only really affect the passengers north of Harrow. I understand what you say about no mention of train frequency cuts so far, but with the amount of cuts this Government is talking about train services are bound to be hit. Why do you think that there will have be be cuts? If passenger numbers were falling rapidly, then maybe, but there has been little sign of this. And why single out the DC lines? These services are the only part of the network which are DOO, so are already comparatively cheap to operate. As well as stations north of Harrow, stations south of Queens Park into Euston would also lose out. There are other cutbacks in the LO network which would give greater savings. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 12:48:51 GMT
The most obvious cutback on LO is -> guards. The new trains I think are capable of OPO and thus guards are no longer needed (not that they were of any use before).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 13:04:26 GMT
Why do you think that there will have be be cuts? I just believe that the only way to make the cuts that are proposed will mean that the service will have to suffer. I hope I am proved wrong, but somehow I doubt it |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 13:05:08 GMT
The most obvious cutback on LO is -> guards. The new trains I think are capable of OPO and thus guards are no longer needed (not that they were of any use before). The trains might be, but the infrastructure is not |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 14:37:50 GMT
The trains might be, but the infrastructure is not What infrastructure are we talking about? I thought new trains are self-contained in that regard? (with in-cab CCTV) From here |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 20:44:53 GMT
Could someone please explain why there is this "time separation" between the two rolling stocks, could it be something to do if one breaks down and needs a pushout? Its something to do with the stopping distance in an emergency... the larger and heavier 313's or 378's would have, and do, take longer to stop in that instance! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2010 10:12:01 GMT
The trains might be, but the infrastructure is not What infrastructure are we talking about? I thought new trains are self-contained in that regard? (with in-cab CCTV) Try CSR for a start |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 28, 2010 13:57:32 GMT
(quoting me) there's then the 'time separation' of I think two clear minutes in front and four clear minutes behind the two types of rolling stock - there is some minimum standard Could someone please explain why there is this "time separation" between the two rolling stocks, could it be something to do if one breaks down and needs a pushout? Only identical stocks can push each other out. Looking at many Bakerloo WTTs over the years - there were occasions when the time separation was only three minutes - here as a rather extreme example:   This is Bakerloo WTT 6 (May 1986), and has the odd occurence of the LMR service being recast without the Bakerloo service being reworked. It was amended by TCs 17/86; 36/86; 41/86, 38/87 then TTNs 98/86; 100/86 plus TC 17/87 revised the LMR service and then TC 37/87 revised the LMR service again! I'll have a quick look through the Bakerloo WTTs, and tell you when the four minutes clear behind differing stocks came in (if I can find it on the shelves). You can also get peculiar things happening with OvergrounD trains being given stand time at Queens Park northbound, this example being from 2007:  Look at the 1837 NB from Euston - it is the only non-bold, non-italicised train in the picture. Some things are arcane and beyond the whit of man. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2010 20:21:27 GMT
With all this talk of time separation, maybe you should read this from the Network Rail "Rule of the Plan" that is used to plan the timing of services over NR routes. The table below shows the DC lines. 5.2 Headways
5.2.1 Headway Values
All times are in minutes. All routes are shown.
Where track circuit block (TCB) signalling applies, the standard headways for each route are shown, together with any
exceptions.
| MD 120 CAMDEN JN TO WATFORD JN DC LINES | | LOCATION | DOWN | UP | | Euston Station to Camden Jn | 4(a) | 4(a) | | Camden Jn to Queens Park Jn | 4 | 4 | | Queens Park Jn to Stonebridge Park | 3(b) | 3 | | Stonebridge Park to Wembley Central DC | 4 | 4 | | Wembley Central DC to Harrow & Wealdstone DC | 4½ | 4½ | | Harrow and Wealdstone to Watford High Street | 6 | 6 | | Watford High Street to Watford Junction | 4 | 4 | | a) can be reduced to 3 minutes | | b) at Queens Park Jn in the Down direction,when a DC line train follows an LUL train from 21 line, a headway of 3½ minutes applies. An LU train can be 2½ minutes behind a DC at Queens Park Jn. |
Refer to www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/Rules%20Of%20The%20Route/Menu/Roprmain.pdf for the full doccument. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 30, 2010 1:36:22 GMT
Aha! That explains quite a bit - I'd always thought it was down to variable timings between the stocks, but was aware that it changed (and not as consistently as a run-time variation).
That's saved working through the data for about 24,000 trains.
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