passenger moves and shunt singals

For passenger movements a higher standard of 'proof' of line safety, such as Facing Points Locks, stretcher bars etc (in general, not necessarily in this case) is required and as such is much more complex (Expensive) to install and maintain.

Stretchers and FPL's are mandatory on any set of facing points, shunt move or not. There are two main things on shunt moves that are different. Firstly the points may not be fitted with a ground lock to hold the points if the air supply fails (remember that the air supply is on the points continuously to keep them in position, should the air supply fail without a ground lock the FPL could disengage by vibration or road movement).

The second feature is more to do with the route than the points, and this is related to the route holding arrangements. On a passenger move, the front of the train must be proved a train's length and 40 feet from the last set of facing points, before the route can be normalised. This is to protect against a track circuit momentarily picking up under the train and causing the route to go back. On a shunt move, as there are no passengers involved the route holding requirements can be relaxed slightly, and they only require all the backlocking tracks (ones over the points) to be energised for 4.5 seconds before the route can be normalised; the assumption being that for a track to pick up under a train for more than that period is highly unlikely.

Is LU alone in this choice to restrict certification of sidings and points? I think I've seen posts from Igelkotten where he relates stories of trains merrily going into sidings with passengers on and coming back out without anyone batting an eyelid...

I am curious though as to whether or not the ATO/ATP system due to be used on the SSL would make it easier to certify a siding for passenger moves, if such a thing was ever deemed necessary - IMHO, it's not ever going to happen, but considering the pain experienced during detraining at certain points, it could be useful.

Well, you aren't supposed to carry passengers into sidings, but if it happens, it is not the end of the world. It is only when you are about to take a train out of service for an extended period of time that you really have to walk through the train and check that it is completely empty.

Indeed, some sidings that are open in both ends are sometimes used as stretches of three-track railway, allowing trains to overtake each other and other operational niceties.

Likewise, while you are not permitted to stable in a depot with passengers on board, you can pass through a depot track with passengers aboard, as long as you don't stop. This has been used a few times to get trains around track failures etc. (OK, this required a bit of rubber paragraphing, but still.)

We do differ between mainline and depot tracks -depot tracks are not fitted with ATP circuitry, not signalled, you can run trains in the depot with ATP cut out and so on, but sidings along the line are considered part of the mainline, and have the same signalling standards applied to them. We have no special shunt signals or similar things, except for a few oddball installations in certain areas, for special purpose.

Once had some sort of juice failure between Upney and Barking in the middle of the morning peak which shut down the westbound. I had to open the section switches on the westbound by the sidings.

However a highly unofficial solution was put in. The 'Big Hat' on site asked every driver if he would go through the sidings (which remained live) WITH PASSENGERS on his responsiblity WITHOUT the route being clipped and scotched.

As he was a very popular big hat, 9 out of 10 drivers agreed. As a result me gets 4 hours overtime for assisting by lowering the trainstop as instructed by the AET (the stick and relay solution) to stop drivers getting their hands dirty. (Except the ones who wanted to do things by the book) Saved the service that morning

Just to add to that, if i'm not wrong (which probably means I am!), we can only do moves such as those through Neasden Depot when full track circuiting is present.