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Post by paterson00 on Aug 27, 2010 20:24:47 GMT
I have a firly good understanding (I think) of approach locking in that IIRC, once a train has reached the sighting point of a signal, the signal indication and associated route is locked. I found this information below on the net.
Approach Locking
A system which prevents a route being cancelled in front of an approaching train if the driver can possibly have seen a non-Danger aspect. In some cases the system may permit aspect replacement. In all cases, the route is preserved until the train is proved stationary, usually by a particular track circuit (in isolation) being occupied for a given time. In the days of semaphore signalling, before modern vital timers, the signalman was obliged to turn a handle a number of times to close and then re-open a contact - and this took a significant time (known as "winding out")
What I would like to know is how the circuitry enables approach locking. I know that an ALSR is used but I dont know where in the system it is or why it is where it is. Would anybody mind explaining?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 20:48:15 GMT
I have a firly good understanding (I think) of approach locking in that IIRC, once a train has reached the sighting point of a signal, the signal indication and associated route is locked. I found this information below on the net. Approach Locking A system which prevents a route being cancelled in front of an approaching train if the driver can possibly have seen a non-Danger aspect. In some cases the system may permit aspect replacement. In all cases, the route is preserved until the train is proved stationary, usually by a particular track circuit (in isolation) being occupied for a given time. In the days of semaphore signalling, before modern vital timers, the signalman was obliged to turn a handle a number of times to close and then re-open a contact - and this took a significant time (known as "winding out") What I would like to know is how the circuitry enables approach locking. I know that an ALSR is used but I dont know where in the system it is or why it is where it is. Would anybody mind explaining? On LU, the signal can be returned to danger, but any points associated with the signal will be aproach locked. It will take a release for the signal [lever] to be normalised. As to circuits, haven't got the foggiest!
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 28, 2010 1:00:49 GMT
Get yourself a copy of Green Book No 15.
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Post by paterson00 on Aug 28, 2010 3:20:03 GMT
Get yourself a copy of Green Book No 15. I asked a collegue tonight about said book and he said it was an IRSE book. Is that correct?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 28, 2010 7:40:56 GMT
Yes. Circuits for Colour Light Signalling. All relay based, though.
When I'm back with a proper keyboard I'll see what I can type up.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 28, 2010 7:46:44 GMT
I have a firly good understanding (I think) of approach locking in that IIRC, once a train has reached the sighting point of a signal, the signal indication and associated route is locked. I found this information below on the net. Approach Locking A system which prevents a route being cancelled in front of an approaching train if the driver can possibly have seen a non-Danger aspect. In some cases the system may permit aspect replacement. In all cases, the route is preserved until the train is proved stationary, usually by a particular track circuit (in isolation) being occupied for a given time. In the days of semaphore signalling, before modern vital timers, the signalman was obliged to turn a handle a number of times to close and then re-open a contact - and this took a significant time (known as "winding out") What I would like to know is how the circuitry enables approach locking. I know that an ALSR is used but I dont know where in the system it is or why it is where it is. Would anybody mind explaining? Traditional LT signalling uses an ALR (not an ALSR) but it is a 'stick' relay held over its own contact once the route it controls is 'cleared' (or 'pushed' or 'OFF') until an approaching train 'drops onto' the approach track. Once the ALR has dropped the signal lever lock drops preventing the reversed signal lever from being normalised but allowing it to move (or be moved) to the mid position and thus it is possible to 'put a signal back' in a driver's face in an emergency. However, the same route can be cleared again as it is otherwise locked but it cannot be cancelled to set a conflicting route without taking a release. In the days of manned cabins the signalman had to 'wind in' and 'wind out' again the release handscrew handle, which took one minute each way, in order to take a release and allow him to replace a signal lever to normal. The handle would pick up the JNR (time hand release relay) and pick up the signal lever lock allowing the signal lever to be restored to normal. Modern practice with 'V' style frames and remote control is for the release to take two minutes. This is achieved using a 2 minute JR, release lever and the JNSR associated with the signal lever which requires to be released and completing the lever lock circuits to allow the signal levers to be restored to the Normal position. Replacing the signal lever to normal picks up the ALR over a 'normal' lever contact band, thus the ALR will 'pickup and stick' as long as the signal lever remains normal even if the approach track is still down, allowing an alternative route to be selected on the same lever if there is one or by setting a route on a different signal lever where there are conflicting routes on different levers. The approach track TR has a Front contact in parallel with the ALR stick contact so the ALR will not drop before the approach track is shunted after the route is set. 'V' style frames can be manually released by 'pulling' the route and then 'pushing' the release at the signal control room to 'wind up' the 2 minute JR, however, there is also an auto release feature which will restore the signal lever to normal automatically should it fail to do so following the proper passage of a train through the route. The rule is that the signal lever must be in the mid position (i.e. it has been 'puffed' normal but the lock has remained down and stopped the lever in the mid) and that the backlock must be clear (all the tracks in the backlock must be unoccupied). With the backlock tracks clear, the release lever normal and the signal lever in the mid the JNSR will pickup, move the release lever to the mid and cause the 2 minute JR to start winding, the JR once picked will reverse the release lever and allow the signal lever to restore to normal by cutting out approach locking and any junction protection etc from the backlock circuit, lifting the lock.
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 28, 2010 9:01:06 GMT
Traditional LT signalling uses an ALR (not an ALSR) but it is a 'stick' relay held over its own contact once the route it controls is 'cleared' (or 'pushed' or 'OFF') until an approaching train 'drops onto' the approach track. Eh? The GVCR is master of the ALR, thus the ALR drops immediately the signal clears. However f you cancel the route the ALR will re-energise immediately provided no train is on the approach track(s). It is the UCLR that waits until a train sights the clear signal before dropping.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 28, 2010 10:53:03 GMT
Traditional LT signalling uses an ALR (not an ALSR) but it is a 'stick' relay held over its own contact once the route it controls is 'cleared' (or 'pushed' or 'OFF') until an approaching train 'drops onto' the approach track. Eh? The GVCR is master of the ALR, thus the ALR drops immediately the signal clears. However f you cancel the route the ALR will re-energise immediately provided no train is on the approach track(s). It is the UCLR that waits until a train sights the clear signal before dropping. Tom, Quite right of course, I had the UCLR in my head while writing/editing my reply but didn't want to include it in case it caused confusion. What is really silly is that just about the first thing I would tell any trainee looking at a controlled signal backlock circuit was "GAUL" as it was the easy way to remember GVCR, ALR, UCLR & Lock and easy to remember that the simplest Lock circuit might contain just a single GVCR contact. I guess it's time for me to quit participating, my brain is definitely not as sharp as it was.
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 28, 2010 12:06:26 GMT
I guess it's time for me to quit participating, my brain is definitely not as sharp as it was. No, please don't - we need more people into signalling here, not fewer It was an unusually sharp spot for me to notice it - I had one of those weeks where I wanted to forget signalling ever existed!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 28, 2010 12:25:45 GMT
Can I echo Tom, too. Don't depart.
One thing, though why isn't it an ALSR, after all you've got the S in the JNSR? Seems odd that the S is missing.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 28, 2010 14:35:15 GMT
Can I echo Tom, too. Don't depart. One thing, though why isn't it an ALSR, after all you've got the S in the JNSR? Seems odd that the S is missing. I don't know why it isn't an ALSR but my guess is that it is because its main function is when it is down while the main function of the JNSR is when it is up. Most relay and other equipment designations are pretty straightforward but the one that I have never really understood is WJ (instead of WL) as used in old point circuits such as existed at the east end of the Picc and elsewhere in the 1970s. Mind you those old Picc cabin relay rooms also contained GMRs rather than GVCRs IIRC and used 50v 33.33Hz and 75v 50Hz relays. I don't recall seeing those relay types used anywhere else and I guess it was perhaps because the Picc east end extension was originally powered by the old North Met Electricity Company whose old offices still stand in Station Road Wood Green AFAIK.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 28, 2010 14:48:31 GMT
I guess it's time for me to quit participating, my brain is definitely not as sharp as it was. No, please don't - we need more people into signalling here, not fewer It was an unusually sharp spot for me to notice it - I had one of those weeks where I wanted to forget signalling ever existed! Well as long as you keep me honest I should hopefully avoid doing too much damage. My main retirement hobby is building telephone servers using Centos or Fedora linux and Asterisk and connecting my heritage telephone collection to other collectors using VOIP and a private worldwide collectors telephone network. I have recently been struggling to get old ISDN2e BRI equipment working, so far with lots of software issues and little success although I have managed to get my PRI 30 channel PCM equipment interfaced with no help at all and a great deal of perseverance. Believe me when I say that I understand exactly how you feel albeit in a different discipline!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 28, 2010 15:50:18 GMT
We've discussed WJs before - ISTR that there could have been some form of rectification involved - quite why on EP points I don't know unless it was involved with the working by TD. After being away from home for almost a week, I'm getting reasonably proficient in using this phone to browse the forum, but thread archaeology is a bit beyond me!
I wonder if there were WJs at W Ken E and W in the bad old days of deterflex?
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 28, 2010 16:12:34 GMT
We've discussed WJs before - ISTR that there could have been some form of rectification involved - quite why on EP points I don't know unless it was involved with the working by TD. After being away from home for almost a week, I'm getting reasonably proficient in using this phone to browse the forum, but thread archaeology is a bit beyond me! I wonder if there were WJs at W Ken E and W in the bad old days of deterflex? My first thought regarding WJ was that perhaps the actual electric groundlock was dc taking a rectified supply but so far I have no evidence to support the theory though it would seem most likely. I do have a hand drawn copy of the print for Cockfosters 16W which I made when I worked there as a young wireman back in 1978 but unfortunately the turnout had no electric groundlock in the circuitry. Edited to add; Thinking about it aren't GE valves dc solenoids with internal rectifiers? We wouldn't normally think about the electrical internal wiring of anything signalling component wise as that would be left to the signal overhaul shop.
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