|
Post by knap on Aug 16, 2010 9:26:59 GMT
I am curious to know how alternative services are decided upon when part of the Met line is closed.
Obviously, if part of the line is physically shut, then this will determine the section say a bus will run, e.g. Amersham to Northwood.
But perhaps there are alternatives when work is south of Harrow.
For example, yesterday (15/08) no trains ran south of Harrow, instead a bus took you to Kenton to pick up the Bakerloo. What did surprise me was there were no extra Chiltern services, as there had been the previously, but Chiltern were running an hourly service to Marylebone on the Sunday. This meant for a very much longer journey to London, so I wondered how the decisions were made about extra Chiltern services or different bus services. Is any consideration of events at Wembley taken into account? On Bank holiday Saturday, the Rugby league final is at Wembley and where as the Met is open through Wembley, it is shut north of Northwood, which is frustrating!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 10:11:05 GMT
Regarding the couple of Sundays recently where there have been no additional Chiltern services between Harrow and Marylebone. I have been told by staff at Harrow that TfL requested them at short notice, and Chiltern subsequently asked for more money than TfL were prepared to pay.
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Aug 16, 2010 14:10:00 GMT
Actually, Chiltern are advised of our works, and whether or not it is possible for us to accommodate additional services. It is then up to them to decide on whether to run additional services or not. Obviously it is helpful when they do, but they are under no obligation to do so.
Also, the track access charges remain the same, and there would be no additional cost. The only time money is spoken of is when their services are delayed on our patch (or their service delays our service on our patch.)
As for planning of engineering work. Often the works are planned many months (sometimes over a year) in advance, and it can be very difficult indeed to swap dates around simply because an event crops up (which was planned at a later date).
Sometimes alterations are made to works if there is a large event and thus large crowds trying to get to/from the venue. But it is quite rare.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,347
|
Post by Colin on Aug 16, 2010 14:33:41 GMT
Ah but money must come into it.
If Chiltern are like any other TOC (except LU of course), their Sunday work is probably covered by overtime. In any case, if they are to provide more than normal, they would surely need extra drivers on overtime - if that isn't being funded, or the funds just aren't available, they will quite rightly not do it. They are after all a business like any other and are in it to make money.
No doubt they have a lot in common with absolutely everyone, including LU; "in the current financial climate" every penny counts.
And that leads onto replacement bus services. Current practice is to have a replacement bus service connecting to another line whenever possible as this saves on the number of buses required and thus the cost to provide such a service. If local bus services (ie, normal scheduled services) can provide a decent enough alternative, their use is preferred too.
There's only so much money left in the pot, particularly after most of it was wasted on PPP, so it's case of using as little of it as possible whilst still covering the majority of the gaps.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 15:58:39 GMT
If Chiltern are like any other TOC (except LU of course), their Sunday work is probably covered by overtime. I'm not sure about Chiltern, but some of the TOCs have recently changed their staffing policies (with agreement) so that Sunday is being treated as part of the standard working week as well. This issue of voluntary overtime being required is probably one of the most difficult staffing issues to handle, as demonstrated by FCC's problems some months back. Changes to franchise areas of operation are also often a nightmare to handle for the HR people because of the different T&C the inherited staff can have.
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Aug 16, 2010 18:21:00 GMT
Ah but money must come into it. If Chiltern are like any other TOC (except LU of course), their Sunday work is probably covered by overtime. In any case, if they are to provide more than normal, they would surely need extra drivers on overtime - if that isn't being funded, or the funds just aren't available, they will quite rightly not do it. They are after all a business like any other and are in it to make money. Yes, agree, but the angle I was coming from was the question of whether it costs them more to use our metals to run more services **. The cost of drivers is more than likely the reason they don't always run the extra services. And as you say, they are a business, and in it to make money not necessarily run a service. When they do run the extras, there must be something in it for them. **There are occasions when the Birmingham service is diverted "our way" and we don't charge them any extra for the priviledge. The flip side to this is that they understand that whilst we will try to get the extra trains through as swiftly as possible, the extras will sometimes have to wait for our trains, and lose further time.
|
|
|
Post by trc666 on Aug 16, 2010 23:04:27 GMT
Does anyone know how much it actually costs in track access charges per train for Chiltern to use LUL metals?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 8:08:16 GMT
Does anyone know how much it actually costs in track access charges per train for Chiltern to use LUL metals? Well, here are some documents which detail what Network Rail charge. For an idea of the amount of £££ involved, tinyurl.com/33weys9And, here is one for electricity consumption rates tinyurl.com/39s9c7m
|
|
|
Post by wellgroomed on Aug 17, 2010 8:49:35 GMT
Actually, Chiltern are advised of our works, and whether or not it is possible for us to accommodate additional services. It is then up to them to decide on whether to run additional services or not. Obviously it is helpful when they do, but they are under no obligation to do so. Quite correct. I think the key word for this situation is *additional*. The diversion of the High Wycombe line services is something conducted on an ad hoc basis and thus made through personnel such as ourselves. Maybe even between the two of us on occasions! However the bolstering of the pre-planned engineering work timetables is not ad hoc and, if I understand correctly, requests are generally made directly between TfL and CR at the levels operated above the control floor. In the latter instance, this would be identical for the railway method relating to the planned diversion of services over another rail operators route, e.g. should a rail operator wish to divert over another operators route. There are such contractual agreements as 'Station Access Rights' and 'Abstractive Revenue Claims' that are adhered to. As such a monetary value is usually placed against such additional trains. There have previously been ad hoc arrangements with the running additional Harrow shuttles from Marylebone, outside instances of engineering work: such as suspension of services running through Wembley Park. Although the effectiveness of these is somewhat limited, given that our biggest self-contained units are only four vehicles. Which, compared to the A stock, can't shift as many people as would be desired! Anything longer than a four vehicle train would require two drivers to conduct shunting at Harrow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 14:16:57 GMT
I wonder how flexible LU would be if the situation was reversed say Chiltern asking more more Amersham services at short notice.......
As for the original question regarding Wembley events. Wembley events have a major impact on engineering works on the Met Line (and to a similar extent the Jubilee). All Wembley events are catergorised and TfL's response is dependent on the category of the event. This is done in conjunction with other stakeholders such as the BTP, local councils and Wembley themselves. This is why often during an event at Wembley a service is offered on the Met from Baker Street in preference to services at the north end of the line.
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Aug 17, 2010 17:28:59 GMT
I wonder how flexible LU would be if the situation was reversed say Chiltern asking more more Amersham services at short notice....... We (as in LU) are advised of Chiltern service suspensions in much the same way as we advise them of our suspensions. However, the norm over the past few years is that it has been us (LU) that it is doing the engineering work on our section which has caused the suspension. Not sure how long ago the last Chiltern suspension (because of their own works) was. Someone here is bound to know ;D
|
|
|
Post by wellgroomed on Aug 17, 2010 21:23:11 GMT
I wonder how flexible LU would be if the situation was reversed say Chiltern asking more more Amersham services at short notice....... We (as in LU) are advised of Chiltern service suspensions in much the same way as we advise them of our suspensions. However, the norm over the past few years is that it has been us (LU) that it is doing the engineering work on our section which has caused the suspension. Not sure how long ago the last Chiltern suspension (because of their own works) was. Someone here is bound to know ;D Chiltern suspensions over the "Met" line: IIRC, not for a little while if we're talking full service suspension for engineering works. The de rigueur these days is for single line working to be used between the available stations, although this has only become accepted practice in the last couple of years.
|
|
|
Post by knap on Aug 18, 2010 11:06:33 GMT
According to the Chiltern web site, this Sunday (and possibly Saturday, have not checked) they are running extra trains, to and from harrow / Marylebone. Good news for passengers, if a bit confusing the non consistency from weekend to weekend
|
|
|
Post by greatcentral on Aug 20, 2010 9:02:02 GMT
Interesting. Chiltern website says extra shuttles Harrow - Marylebone Saturday due to Met closure Harrow- Aldgate which is what TFL site said earlier this week. Now TFL says the the Sat closure is only Baker Street - Aldgate. If this is the case someone needs to tell Chiltern.
Incidentally according to Chiltern Amersham - Baker St is shut next (Bank Holiday) weekend coinciding yet again with a Test Match at Lord's - anyone want to bet that the Jubilee to St John's Wood will be shut as well?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2010 9:17:19 GMT
anyone want to bet that the Jubilee to St John's Wood will be shut as well? Strangely enough Jubilee will be open on 28th (but closed on 29th and 30th).
|
|
|
Post by greatcentral on Aug 20, 2010 9:25:01 GMT
Thanks to Alex T - incipient rant defused!
|
|
|
Post by knap on Aug 20, 2010 11:23:00 GMT
I assume Jubilee open on 28th owing to Rugby League cup final at Wembley
|
|