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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2010 7:35:06 GMT
After travelling on the new S8 Stock the other day, got me thinking are any of the A60/62 stock being preserved or even kept for other uses?
After all the years of travelling on them be a shame if something is not saved, be it a single carriage or a 4 car unit.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 10, 2010 7:43:33 GMT
There is mention of this somewhere on the forum........ Can't think what thread though.
However, someone planned to by a unit, and I'm sure there was talk of at least one 4 car unit going to Acton, but I'll try and dig it out for clarification.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2010 7:50:16 GMT
Last time I was at Acton (the meet before last) myself and a couple of other members (I can't remember who it was though, sorry ) were chatting with one of the volunteers there. They were saying that a four-car A stock was definitely going to be preserved, along with a 1967. Due to the similarity with the 1967s it was unlikely Acton would be preserving a 1972 stock (space issues). There were also question marks over a 1973 stock (given the space constraints, did they need another example of that era of LU-stock?). I also think they were talking about taking either a C or a D but not both, but I'm not certain on that one. Plans could easily have changed since then.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 10, 2010 7:53:11 GMT
Ah..... Now you mention it, wasn't there talk of C and D being preserved but not a 73 as it was too similar to D, and with the 73's probably going to IOW.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2010 8:03:31 GMT
I though the 73 being preserved was due to it's temporal and technological similarity to the 1967/72 stock rather than any comparison with Ds as wasn't it the 1983 stock that were effectively mini D stocks? Personally I'd preserve a 73 stock as the face of London for Underground for so many travellers arriving at Heathrow would be a brig draw I suspect. That it's also (one of) the best refurbishments ever carried out on any LU stock is another reason. However, given the delays to its replacement, the issue of preservation will have been similarly delayed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2010 8:36:33 GMT
Out of interest would these be saved by private groups or LTM?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2010 9:14:21 GMT
My posts are solely about preservation by the LTM. There is nothing to stop private groups preserving one or more units themselves as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2010 9:53:00 GMT
OK glad to know a real body plans to save one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2010 17:55:00 GMT
As well as Acton, would there be any scope/interest/viability for the NRM in York to have one? Do they have any London Transport stock up there at all come to think of it?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2010 19:23:44 GMT
It would certainly be within their scope (which as I understand it is railways in Britain), but I can't remember whether they have any LU stock or not. They do have this in their stores though: (click for a larger version)
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 10, 2010 19:30:47 GMT
As well as Acton, would there be any scope/interest/viability for the NRM in York to have one? Do they have any London Transport stock up there at all come to think of it? They used to have the Waterloo and City car that is now down the depot.
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Post by Colin on Aug 11, 2010 1:09:37 GMT
I though the 73 being preserved was due to it's temporal and technological similarity to the 1967/72 stock rather than any comparison with Ds as wasn't it the 19 83 stock that were effectively mini D stocks? 83ts is indeed a tube sized version of D stock, but the rest of what you wrote isn't correct. 67ts & 72ts is considered to be 'conventional stock' - in sub surface terms, the 'conventional' stocks are A & C stocks. Among other things in common, these stocks have two air pipes (train line and main line) and EP & Westinghouse brakes. The 73ts are technically very similar to D stocks in that the train line air is replaced by an electrical round train circuit (in simple terms) and has the Westcode braking system.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 29, 2010 20:12:47 GMT
Interesting suggestion from Alan Williams in Modern Railways - with new rolling stock orders on National Rail conspicuous by their absence and Pacers falling apart, might there be a home for A stock outside London? They would need diesel traction, but there is a surplus of that at present, with relatively new Class 60s being mothballed.
Is Alan Williams talking rubbish, or would it be technically possible? Without an external electric supply, I suppose power would have to be taken from the locomotive to drive the compressors to power the brakes and the doors, but this is not a new idea - that's how they do it on Alderney.
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Sept 29, 2010 23:06:50 GMT
The real problem might be finding another line with loading guage clearance for "Britain's widest rolling stock"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2010 12:44:21 GMT
Alan Williams has been coming up with fanciful ideas for years. Anything is 'technically possible' but it doesn't make it remotely practical! The 'Pacers' have been falling apart since they were built so no change there. The thought of replacing 1980s built 'Pacers' with 1960 built A stock would be politically disastrous. Then there are, of course, the loading guage issues that A stock have.
As for hauling them around with class 60s..... I would imagine that most of the network that is frequented by 'Pacers' is out of bounds to class 60s due to weight issues. The 130 tonne class 60 has a route availability figure of 8 whereas I would imagine that most of the lines that 'Pacers' call their own have a route availability less than that. Adding a feed from the alternator to power the electrical stuff required to haul A stock (doors, lights, etc.) would add even more weight. Then there is the issue of control. Presumably Mr Williams would see them used in 'Push-Pull' mode as few run-round facilitues have been retained. More mods and more weight.
There is also the issue of why the 60s are being withdrawn in the first place. The 60 is a classic case of a design not learning the lessons of history. In terms of British Loco engineering it was revolutionary in its day as it was intended to be a British answer to the class 59. Sadly, BR saw fit to forgo the usual prototype testing and ordered 100 off of the drawing board. That was the first lesson of history ignored! The second was the lesson from the class 31s. The 31s were built with Mirrlees power units. Within four or five years of the last one being delivered the decision was made to re-engine the entire 263-strong fleet with English Electric units as the Mirrlees ones were not up to the rigors of railway use. It is therefore puzzling that the decision was made to equip the class 60 fleet with Mirrlees engines that had been untried in the railway environment. The result was a loco that, once it had seen a decade or so in service, became unreliable. In these days of penalty clauses for all traffic flows including freight this could not be tolerated. The few in regular use are being utilised on the handful of trains that DBS has that are beyond the haulage capability of a 66. The decline of the class is a pity but it is inevitable. A shame as they are a real pleasure to drive. Smooth riding, quite in the cab. Not like a modern loco at all.......!
Operationally there would also be problems. The 'Pacers' are 75mph units and are timed accordingly. The class 60 is a 60mph loco. They are geared accordingly and any increase in speed would involve expensive modification. Even if the class 60 was allowed to go faster I would imagine that the Civil Engineer would have kittens at the thought! Quite a number of companies operate 'Pacers' These would have to retrain their fitting and operations staff on the class 60. This would be a huge amount of staff and would, therefore, be prohibitively expensive. Refurbishing the stored examples to traffic would also be expensive. They are not 'relatively new' any more. It is over twenty one years ago that 60001 came out of the Brush factory.
The simple answer is, yes, in my humble opinion Alan Williams is talking rubbish!
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