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Post by londonse on Aug 2, 2010 10:13:50 GMT
Hi I have a document which has some technical stuff way over my head, one section is about the types of signalling
1. Manual operated (N) style lever frame pushing and pulling levers.
2. (N) style lever frame converted to air operated working remotely and controlled by programme machines regulated by regulators from a central control room.
3. Manual push button control system operated by signalman operating (V) style remotely operated interlocking machines.
4. Remotely operated (V) style interlocking machines controlled by programme machines and regulated by a regulator from a central control room.
5. Relay interlocking system replacing the mechanical interlocking systems N & V style frames. Controlled by push button operation with both manual and automatic operation and computer controlled timetables.
6. Modern system Westrace computer based interlocking automatically controlled by local site computers and regulated from a central control centre.
There are no dates or even which lines they apply to, I have seen some mention of some of these but my search skills are not the best. Can anyone shed more?
Paul
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 3, 2010 17:29:27 GMT
Looks like someone listing the signal control systems in use on the Underground.
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Post by londonse on Aug 3, 2010 19:22:25 GMT
Looks like someone listing the signal control systems in use on the Underground. TP that's exactly what it is, I was asking where does it apply not being knowledgeable like some on here. Paul
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 4, 2010 8:30:54 GMT
There are a couple or more signalling experts on here, I'm sure one will be along to assist. However, our very own harsig has his own website that might be of some help to you: Clickety ClickMeantime, hang tight, someone will know the answers.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 5, 2010 0:38:30 GMT
Go on then, I'll have a go...... This I think refers to cabins with miniature power levers. Examples would be Rickmansworth, Harrow on the Hill? , Hammersmith and Whitechapel. This reads like it refers to an IMR (Interlocking Machine Room). There various IMR's all over LU, found at controlled sites. Push button signal cabins. Examples are Amersham, Rickmansworth, Rayners Lane, Barking and Upminster. Again seems to refer to IMR's, specifically those controlled from the likes of Rickmansworth, Cobourg Street (Northern), Cobourg Street (Victoria? ) and Earls Court (District and Piccadilly). This looks like IMR's again, but being part of a computer based signalling system I'd suggest this applies to Baker Street (Bakerloo, Metropolitan, Circle & H&C) and Earls Court (Piccadilly). This screams Central line at me. Hope all that is some use to you....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2010 2:05:33 GMT
Go on then, I'll have a go...... This I think refers to cabins with miniature power levers. Examples would be Rickmansworth, Harrow on the Hill? , Hammersmith and Whitechapel. There is also Edgware Road, which is a B style frame. This reads like it refers to an IMR (Interlocking Machine Room). There various IMR's all over LU, found at controlled sites. The only ones that contain N2 frames of this type, to my knowledge, are Ealing Broadway and West Kensington East. Push button signal cabins. Examples are Amersham, Rickmansworth, Rayners Lane, Barking and Upminster. Again seems to refer to IMR's, specifically those controlled from the likes of Rickmansworth, Cobourg Street (Northern), Cobourg Street (Victoria? ) and Earls Court (District and Piccadilly). This looks like IMR's again, but being part of a computer based signalling system I'd suggest this applies to Baker Street (Bakerloo, Metropolitan, Circle & H&C) and Earls Court (Piccadilly). This screams Central line at me. Plus the Victoria Line, whose Westrace interlockings are currently in read-only mode on top of the existing V frame IMRs.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 5, 2010 3:02:44 GMT
On the topic of types of signalling, how many incompatable types will be in use by the time the upgrdes get finished? Presumably about one per tube line, one for the SSR and tripcock for most other places?
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 5, 2010 12:11:17 GMT
1. Manual 'N' - a signalman hand operating miniature levers. (signalman in a cabin with the frame) 2. Converted 'N' known as 'N2' such as Ealing Broadway (an IMR site) operated by PMCs at EBY and regulated by signal operators (used to be regulators) at Earls Court. 3. An IMR with a 'V' style frame and signal man somewhere else controlling it with a push button panel (Farringdon/Aldgate used to be like this). (two regulators/signalmen in Farringdon signal cabin each with a PB panel, one working Aldgate Area and the other the Farringdon area with IMRs at Aldgate, Moorgate and Farringdon. 4. much the same as 2. IMRs with 'V' style frames such as Northfields and Boston Manor operated with PMCs and regulated by signal operators at Earls Court. 5. There are no frames on the Central or the JLE so relay interlocking must apply to both, I know the JLE uses PLCs and ladder logic but I've never seen or worked on it. 6. Westrace is also something I know nothing about as it wasn't used on the lines that I worked as a signal maintenance TO. However, my understanding is that it is a control system that is simply another way of remote controlling signalling.
Whether lever frames are used or not and what type is not particularly relevant or irrelevant to any line as such, whichever system is used there is interlocking at each level and each level is one building block in a system, that system can be manual, automatic, programmed, timetabled, computerised, locally or remotely controlled and fully interlocked using the different building blocks to create such an interlocking that might be used anywhere. The lowest level of interlocking is mechanical at trackside but there can be mechanical, electrical and/or electronic locking at any level as suited to the technology and equipment in use. Over the years LT/LU has mixed and matched technologies to create systems which apply the same safety signalling principles but wherein every site is unique to a greater or lesser extent. It is thus difficult to pin down any one system to any given line as whatever was current thinking at the time became the 'system' and there has never been a single standard applied to all sites on all lines, nor could there be for all sorts of reasons that aren't relevant in this thread. Current thinking is to do away with lever frames altogether and LU is perhaps somewhat unique in the modern railway world as it still has so many.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 5, 2010 19:42:03 GMT
5 is basically the Central Line (West End), Waterloo and City, Heathrow T5and the new West Ham, when it gets commissioned. The method of remote control varies (Computers on all but West Ham and possibly T5).
6 relates to the Central Line (East of Bank), Victoria Line (Upgrade) and the Jubilee Line Extension. Westrace isn't a control system, it's an interlocking in it's own right, just using Ladder Logic like a PLC to achieve the same results. The ladders are actually laid out in much the same way as a relay interlocking.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 5, 2010 20:01:48 GMT
5 is basically the Central Line (West End), Waterloo and City, Heathrow T5and the new West Ham, when it gets commissioned. The method of remote control varies (Computers on all but West Ham and possibly T5). 6 relates to the Central Line (East of Bank), Victoria Line (Upgrade) and the Jubilee Line Extension. Westrace isn't a control system, it's an interlocking in it's own right, just using Ladder Logic like a PLC to achieve the same results. The ladders are actually laid out in much the same way as a relay interlocking. Thanks Tom, all stuff that I have never seen. Hands up on the Westrace which I did believe to be more of a remote control system i.e. my thinking was of it being almost entirely non-safety. I admit to finding it difficult to draw a line between safety and non-safety where there are no lever frames and where I have never seen the equipment! I'm not sure what happened at T5, one of my former colleagues left Tube Lines and was doing the installation work there just before I retired. My recollection was that the old T123 computers were going to be replaced with something new,I presume new computers but I don't know.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 5, 2010 20:22:41 GMT
I have to admit Westrace is one of those systems where even I'd be wary about where to draw the line between Safety and Non-Safety. Really the only cards on the system I would count as non-safety would be the NVC (Non-Vital Comms) cards, and even then if I was issuing someone an AWC to change an NVC card I'd still write out a Safety AWC for powering the Westrace down and up...
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Post by londonse on Aug 6, 2010 7:20:27 GMT
Thanks for all the replies.
Paul
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