Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Aug 1, 2010 2:18:12 GMT
A new thread seems sensible...
Can anyone explain why the Hammersmith & City is fully suspended this weekend?
I didn't clock it till I read my traffic circular properly just before picking up my first train yesterday (Saturday), but I can't see any possible reason for it to be fully suspended. All tracks it uses (Hammersmith to Edgware Road excepted of course) are available and are being used by Circle/District services; the only exception is the bit between Aldgate East and Liverpool Street. The very bit that is unique to the Hammersmith & City line and which is used quite a lot by our customers!!
So what's the reason for providing no service?
EDIT: in fact it's even more bizarre given that the Met is not running to Aldgate today (Sunday) - that's leaves just a 10 minute Circle line service between Edgware Road and Aldgate. I'm sure that'll be nice for all those left to make do with it.
I'm normally one of the first to defend LU, but not this time.
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Post by harlesden on Aug 1, 2010 6:10:33 GMT
Could it be the current trend to publicise planned closures weeks in advance has backfired on this occasion? Whatever work was planned ended up being cancelled, but LUL decided against cancelling the closure - because the public had already been told about the closure and the replacement buses booked. Has LUL ever cancelled a planned closure? On the operating side, surely drivers who had been looking forward for weeks to a particular Sunday free, due to line closure, would be more than a little irritated if LUL suddenly changed its mnd a week or so beforehand and announced normal service.
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Post by citysig on Aug 1, 2010 7:27:46 GMT
The weekday blockade timetable is reliant heavily on trains being outstabled at District depots rather than Hammersmith. The weekends are being used to move stock between Upminster and Ealing and also to get work done on the stock. This means there is less stock / operators available to run the reduced H&C service that is running in the week. The Met suspension today is a separate issue that just happens to clash with the H&C suspension. It should be noted that the Met is suspended due to Jubilee Line works. The H&C closure was planned over a year ago. The Jubilee Line works were "dropped in" quite recently (because of course much of their work should have been finished by now, and who would have thought a year ago it would still be going on ) (well most people could have predicted it, but that's another thread )
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Post by citysig on Aug 1, 2010 7:31:11 GMT
Has LUL ever cancelled a planned closure? Yes, many times, and sometimes it has worked out well, and sometimes it hasn't. You can't simply cancel a weekend shutdown on a Monday morning and expect a full compliment of drivers to turn up on the Saturday. Changing their duties is no simple task and cannot be done at such short notice. The last time I was on duty when a major shutdown was cancelled, they attempted to run a near-full service with (predictably - and we warned them) disastrous results.
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cso
Posts: 1,043
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Post by cso on Aug 1, 2010 12:40:13 GMT
It should be noted that the Met is suspended due to Jubilee Line works. Why? Surely it's seperate track etc. so wouldn't affect it? Additionally, would it not then make sense to do some Met work today too?
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Post by citysig on Aug 1, 2010 18:16:24 GMT
Why? Surely it's seperate track etc. so wouldn't affect it? Additionally, would it not then make sense to do some Met work today too? In answer to the first question, an engineering possession has to be taken for some of the testing being carried out on the Jubilee. Part of the protection for those on and about the Jubilee Line tracks is to stop the Met Line from running - there are areas where both lines are very close and there is no room to install any sort of physical barrier to protect staff. In answer to the second question, they do carry out other works whilst the Met is shut. Obviously, in a round-about way, the Met cannot carry out certain work that may infringe on the Jubilee Line possession, and cannot carry out work that may be infringe upon by the Jubilee Line possession. If you see what I mean ;D
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Post by messiah on Aug 1, 2010 20:30:25 GMT
Yes, many times, and sometimes it has worked out well, and sometimes it hasn't. You can't simply cancel a weekend shutdown on a Monday morning and expect a full compliment of drivers to turn up on the Saturday. Changing their duties is no simple task and cannot be done at such short notice. Do shut downs count as normal days off, additional free holiday or "it depends" upon normal shift patterns? If it was additional free holiday I would expect it to be publicised that if the closure was cancelled then staff would be expected to work, but if rotas were rescheduled to be normal days off then obviously a completely different story. Obviously in a heavily unionised world then there are additional considerations like what Bob Crow's pet budgie thinks.
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Post by harlesden on Aug 1, 2010 20:35:26 GMT
Yes, many times, and sometimes it has worked out well, and sometimes it hasn't. You can't simply cancel a weekend shutdown on a Monday morning and expect a full compliment of drivers to turn up on the Saturday. Changing their duties is no simple task and cannot be done at such short notice. Do shut downs count as normal days off, additional free holiday or "it depends" upon normal shift patterns? If it was additional free holiday I would expect it to be publicised that if the closure was cancelled then staff would be expected to work, but if rotas were rescheduled to be normal days off then obviously a completely different story. Obviously in a heavily unionised world then there are additional considerations like what Bob Crow's pet budgie thinks. Is he on Twitter?
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 1, 2010 21:32:50 GMT
there are additional considerations like what Bob Crow's pet budgie thinks. I think I am going to frame this and put it on my wall ;D!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Aug 1, 2010 23:46:13 GMT
Despite the explanation given by MetControl, I'm shocked that I'm starting to see the passengers perspective ;D ;D Anyway... Do shut downs count as normal days off, additional free holiday or "it depends" upon normal shift patterns? Additional free holidays? I wished!! No, it's still a normal working day. It very much depends on what is left of the railway to run a service on, but drivers duties will generally be quite close to the same hours as they would have been on a day with no engineering work. Again depending on what can be provided, it may be that there'll only be 3 or 4 hours actual driving with the rest of a duty being 'Duty Managers Instructions' - that can mean phoning up and agreeing to book on later or finishing earlier. Obviously a nice bonus. If there's substantially less work to cover, some duties that would normally have driving work on them are made into additional spares. There can also be days when the whole depot will be on 'Duty Managers Instructions'. What usually happens then is the book on's are arranged so that there'll be 4 or 5 drivers booking on together in blocks throughout the day. Those drivers can either be used to cover work for another depot, or managers will use the opportunity to catch up on performance & development reviews, teamtalks, etc. Naturally they don't keep us for the full booked hours so again early finishes are a nice bonus. Weekends are notoriously difficult to get off, but it's naturally quite a lot easier when there's engineering works as less work to cover means a few losses can be swallowed - especially if there are additional spares. When the whole depot is on 'Duty Managers Instructions', particularly if it covers a Bank Holiday weekend, management do actively encourage drivers to book an annual leave day - that's all well and good but is it worth wasting an annual leave day when you might only be there for a few hours anyway? Some drivers so still find the facility useful though, if they want it guaranteed off. So depending on what's scheduled, it may be possible to cancel a planned special timetable for weekend engineering work (as MetControl says, it has been done in the past), but then again it may be that there's just too much to undo and they have to run with it regardless.
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Post by messiah on Aug 1, 2010 23:52:00 GMT
Thanks Colin
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Post by citysig on Aug 2, 2010 10:26:22 GMT
Despite the explanation given by MetControl, I'm shocked that I'm starting to see the passengers perspective ;D ;D I had a touch of that the other week. Don't worry, there's a lot of it about. Quick visit to your GP for some ointment and you'll be back to leaving people on the platform in no time ;D ;D
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
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Post by SE13 on Aug 2, 2010 15:13:14 GMT
Again from a bus drivers point of view, but it works the same way. They demand that you come into work regardless of whether your route can run or not, so you become a dogsbody or spare. If the bosses had it their way, you'd go to the toilet for them.
But why waste a days leave when you can go in, and they are throwing money at you to stand around and drink coffee? Chances are, you'll go home early, and still be paid for the full duty.
Nothing I can do about the road closure or whatever, so all the time they are paying me to do nothing, I'm more than happy, and it'll equally apply to those on LU too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2010 16:38:06 GMT
The LT website has the service shown as suspended on 7/8 August but running Edgware Rd-Whitechapel on 14/15 August. Assuming this is accurate, is this because the weekend of 14th is the last weekend of the blockade, therefore meaning that units can get back to Hammersmith during the following week.
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Post by citysig on Aug 2, 2010 22:11:09 GMT
Yes that weekend we are running slightly more. Not sure of the thinking behind it as none of the stock will get to Hammersmith until the Monday morning. So regardless of where they run, it will still be back to Barking/Ealing etc. on the Sunday evening.
Does seem to be taking a bit of a chance if the reason is Hammersmith will be available the following week. Defects will occur when they occur - you can't pin your hopes on everything "lasting out" until Monday.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2010 14:22:45 GMT
Thanks for the gen, Met Control. Presumably it will be a 10 minute Met service Edgware Road-Whitechapel. Could it be that there are some now servicable rakes of C stock 'trapped' at Hammersmith which the powers that be are relying on being able to use. Of course, with works this large in nature they will have a fairly good idea by around Thursday-Friday whether the works are likely to be finished on time, so they will presumably have the option to go for a change of plan.
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Post by citysig on Aug 5, 2010 22:03:31 GMT
Thanks for the gen, Met Control. Presumably it will be a 10 minute Met service Edgware Road-Whitechapel. Saw the timetable yesterday, and yes it is basically the weekday service we've been running but on a weekend - so 10 minute Circles, 10 minute Edgware Road-Whitechapels. Of course, with works this large in nature they will have a fairly good idea by around Thursday-Friday whether the works are likely to be finished on time, so they will presumably have the option to go for a change of plan. They've had a fairly good idea from the moment the first spade hit the earth. The status of each worksite on the branch is made known to those who need to know around 3-4 times a day. Sunday saw one site operating a few hours behind, but by Monday lunchtime they were back on time.
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