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Post by jacko1 on Jul 16, 2010 15:10:55 GMT
out of interest,if a lul train failed between queens park and any section of network rail infastructre,and a lol 313 was behind,what is the procedure to assist the failed lul? is there a spl coupling that can be used,and if so,i take it that it would not be part of the on train equipment.also vise versa if a 313 failed
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 16, 2010 16:05:27 GMT
The 313 would have to moved out of the way so that a 72ts could be brought in to to assist. Ditto the other way around.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 16:10:47 GMT
In days long gone, allegedly Class 501's could assist failed 1938 stock - Can anyone confirm if this is true and if so did it actually ever occur?
Xerces Fobe
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 16:45:47 GMT
I am fairly sure that in days gone by the 1938s did have an adaptor for the 501s. I also think (if my memory serves me right in my days as a Bakerloo Line Controller in the early 1970s) that it was also a call to "the Breakdown Gang" (today's Emergency Response Unit) to get to site as quickly as possible.
I believe that a 501 could assist a Bakerloo but not the other way round. I never recalled it happening, but that's not to say it didn't.
This also begs the question, did the adaptor also work for the GEC Compartment and Oerlikon Stocks as well.
Were they carried by the Pre-1938s (and previous 1920 WJS Stock). And did the Gate Stock have them, too, as although they weren't scheduled to go to Watford, photographs show that they occasionally did.
Maybe TP can help a little more with this?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jul 16, 2010 17:35:23 GMT
From memory, 501s had an adapter 'bar' in a 'compartment'* in the front cab (west or north?) that could be used to push a 1938 Stock but there was no facility or arrangement the other way round. I have seen a photo of the device and think it was at a LURS meeting? TP would recall as he was of course generally there at the meetings that I went to. The next question is did it enable a 1972 Stock to be pushed?
* Clearly my memory is failing! Yes, the drawbar was indeed in the tube cab..I am sure that it was at the north end only. That would of course be an A end!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 16, 2010 20:19:59 GMT
Appendix 6 to the Rule Book, 1983 (Breakdown Arrangements).
Reg G7 contains:
"Emergency draw gear is provided on 1938 Tube stock trains on the BAkerloo Line to enable them to be assisted by L.M.R. trains north of Queen's Park if they are unable to move under their own power... "Drivers of assisting L.M.R. trains will cut out sufficient sets of motors to ensure that the mimimum power necessary to move the defective L.T. train is applied. The drawbar must be coupled to the L.M.R. trains first and in no circumstances may the emergency drawgear be used to enable an L.T. train to assist an L.M.R. train".
Just further to this no mention is made of the 72ts containing anything. The drawbar was under the long seat behind the drivers cab and other items under the cross seats in 'A' DMs of 4 car units.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 21:17:07 GMT
Brilliant Ben - thank you.
Today, the 1972 MkIIs face the 'opposite way' to usual - i.e. 'A' end south and 'D' end north.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 21:22:47 GMT
Thanks for this - handy to know, next time a tube train fails on my Croxley Wiggenhall Road Depot layout Xerces Fobe
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Post by bassmike on Jul 17, 2010 9:55:31 GMT
the adaptor bar slotted into a hatch in the 1938 cab floor just inside the central door which obviously had to be left 0pen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 13:15:46 GMT
An extract from the relevent publication is reproduced below: Working Instructions for DC Electrified Lines between Euston – Watford Junction – Croxley Green and Broad Street – Richmond
November 19751.22 Assistance to disabled trains
1.22.1 Only the following electric train formations are authorised for assistance purposes from either front or rear subject to the provisions of clause 1.22.3:
Disabled Train | Assisting Train | See also clause no. | BR Electric | BR Electric | 1.22.4, 1.22.5 and 1.22.6 | LT Bakerloo Line | BR Electric | 1.22.5, 1.22.6, 1.22.7 and 1.22.9 | BR Electric | LT District Line | 1.22.4, 1.22.6, 1.22.8 and 1.22.9 | LT Bakerloo Line | LT Bakerloo Line | 1.22.6 | LT District Line | LT District Line | 1.22.6 | LT District Line | BR Electric | 1.22.5, 1.22.6, 1.22.8 and 1.22.9 |
1.22.1A The weight of the disabled train must not exceed the weight of the assisting train during assistance. The trains must be coupled together.
1.22.2 A non-electric train is authorised to assist an electric train from either front or rear and the provisions of clause 1.22.3(a) (b) and (d) must be applied. An electric train must NOT be used to assist a non electric train.
1.22.3 The following conditions apply when an electric train is being assisted by an electric train: (a) The Driver of the disabled train must hand his controller reversing key to the Driver of the assisting train and ride in the leading cab of the disabled train. The Driver of the leading train will in normal circumstances be responsible for the operation of the brake. (b) If assistance is from the rear, the Guard of the disabled train must ride with the Driver of the assisting train and help him with observing all signals, including the front Drivers hand signals. When the Guard of the disabled train is required to travel in the rear cab of his own train in accordance with clauses 1.22.4 or 1.22.9 of this section, the Guard of the assisting train must travel with his own Driver to assist in observing signals. (c) If the failure is electrical, appropriate jumper cables MUST NOT be connected between the two trains. (d) Great care must be exercised by all concerned in moving a disabled train, particularly when starting and stopping. Where possible, the brake pipes of the defective and assisting trains must be coupled, in order to provide a continuous brake throughout. (e) The Driver of the leading train must give the appropriate horn code which the Driver of the rear train must acknowledge, and whenever possible, also exchange hand signals. The horn code to be used is as follows:
Signal | Indication | One | Go ahead | Two | Set back | Three | Stop |
1.22.4 When assistance is given by a non-electric train or when the brake on the disabled train is defective, the disabled train must be kept under control by means of the handbrakes, the Driver of the disabled train being in charge of the handbrake in the leading cab and the Guard of the disabled train being in charge of the handbrake in the rear cab.
1.22.5 When a BR electric train is being used to assist and fails to initiate movement, ASSISTANCE MUST CEASE AND NO FURTHER ATTEMPT MUST BE MADE TO MOVE THE TRAIN. If the movement has not reached 10mph after assistance has been given for ONE MINUTE, assistance must cease until an interval of TEN MINUTES has elapsed, when assistance may again be attempted. IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT THE INTERVAL OF ONE MINUTE TO ATTAIN 10MPH IS STRICTLY OBSERVED. If the speed of the movement reaches 10mph within one minute, assistance may continue provided the speed does not drop below 10mph.
1.22.6 Between Camden Junction and Watford Junction or Gunnersbury and Richmond the tripcock apparatus on the leading vehicle of the train in rear must be isolated and not reset until the movement is completed. The tripcock apparatus on the leading vehicle must be operative. In the event of a complete loss of air on a disabled train that is being propelled, there will be no tripcock apparatus operative on the movement and therefore extreme care must be exercised.
1.22.7 Emergency drawgear is provided on LT Bakerloo Line trains which will be used in the event of an emergency arising necessitating a defective LT Bakerloo Line train being assisted (propelled or drawn) by a BR electric train. The equipment is located under the seats of the Watford end driving motor car on each four car set of vehicles numbered in the 10000 series. (a) When it is necessary for the emergency drawgear to be brought into use, the following sequence of operations must be carried out by the LT Trainmen, with the assistance, as far as possible of the BR Trainmen. (i) Bolt drawhook clamp on BR vehicle. (ii) Raise emergency coupling floor trap in cab of LT car, drop in the pillar and move it to the left when facing end of car from inside. Fit taper key in the slot provided and tap home with hammer to secure pillar rigidly in floor casting. (iii) Fit coupling bar to drawhook clamp by means of the turned pin and cotter, locking the latter with the “C” hook. (iv) Driver in charge of the assisting train must reduce power by cutting out sufficient sets of motors prior to coupling to ensure that the minimum power necessary to move the defective train is available before attempting to move it. (v) Arrange for assisting train to be moved up to the defective train, at the same time guiding the coupling bar into position on the pillar. When in position, fix it by means of the turned pin and cotter. In all cases the coupling bar must be fitted to the BR vehicle first. (b) Drivers must exercise the greatest care in starting and stopping trains when the emergency drawgear is in use. The movement must be made at the lowest speed practicable and in no circumstance must the speed exceed 10mph.
1.22.8 When a LT District Line train assists or is assisted by a BR electric train the LT Neasden Breakdown Gang must be called to couple the two trains with the special adaptor that is carried on the Neasden Breakdown lorry-IN NO CIRCUMSTANCES MUST THE LT DISTRICT LINE TRAIN BE BROUGHT INTO DIRECT CONNTACT WITH THE BR ELECTRIC TRAIN.
1.22.9 When the emergency coupling is in use the Guard of the leading train must ride in the rear cab of that train and keep the emergency coupling under observation.
1.22.10 If a LT train breaks down on BR lines the person in charge at the nearest station is responsible for carrying out the provisions of the Rule Book Section M, Clause 2.2. Traffic control will advise the London Transport Bakerloo Line Controller at Baker Street or District Line Controller at Earls Court as appropriate of the circumstances, and agree the course of action which shall be taken in order to deal with the breakdown.
1.22.11 If a BR electric train is “gapped”, arrangements must be made for it to be assisted forward in accordance with clause 1.22.1 or 1.22.2 of this Section to regain contact with the conductor rail.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 20:04:13 GMT
Did all 1938 stock driving cabs have an "emergency coupling floor trap" (hatch), or was it a Bakerloo only mod?
What is (and was) the position regarding LT tube and surface stocks assisting each other in the event of failure?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 18, 2010 0:55:14 GMT
Typical! I'm over in my other house at the moment, and 300 miles away from a relevant publication. I only moved the booK in question to Kent 4 weeks ago when I was last this way. It is a just pre WWII 'New Lines' instruction book from the LMS, and I'm sure that the version of the assisting instructions therein is slightly different. The 1930 District appendix is also an interesting read on the same subject.
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 18, 2010 11:15:12 GMT
Typical! I'm over in my other house at the moment, and 300 miles away from a relevant publication. I only moved the booK in question to Kent 4 weeks ago when I was last this way. It is a just pre WWII 'New Lines' instruction book from the LMS, and I'm sure that the version of the assisting instructions therein is slightly different. The 1930 District appendix is also an interesting read on the same subject. The 1926 Tube Lines Appendix says that "joint stock" trains (They meant 1920 Watford Joint Stock) could only be rescued by another joint stock train or by a steam locomotive bringing a special match van from Euston where it was stabled.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 16:14:36 GMT
Did all 1938 stock driving cabs have an "emergency coupling floor trap" (hatch), or was it a Bakerloo only mod? What is (and was) the position regarding LT tube and surface stocks assisting each other in the event of failure? The need to assist 1938 stock with main line locos could also arise on the north end of the Northern line and as far as I am aware all 1938 stock was fitted as standard.
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Post by jacko1 on Aug 14, 2010 21:20:02 GMT
to take my op a bit more,what is the situation with regards to failures on the shared section of the chiltern/met lines?
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