Oracle
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Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Jul 12, 2010 23:46:32 GMT
My search engine has revealed that I asked about tripcock fitment on BR diesels on this Forum before and it has been archived! We know that BTH Class 15 locos were so fitted for use on the Northern Line freight duties. Loughtonsiding commented previously: The first Class 20s, along with Class 15s and the spectacularly bad Class 16s (D8400 series, Paxman/GEC) were allocated to Devons Road. That depot worked a lot of cross-London freight, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't cover the Widened Lines/Snow Hill.
Cricklewood did freight via the Widened Lines using Class 24s for a while, until they were prohibited due to allegedly being excessively heavy, so they must presumably have been tripcock fitted. I don't think Cricklewood had Class 20s.
Hornsey used the Class 15s, but, once again, I don't think that they had Class 20s.
Given the above, I'd say it was very unlikely that any were tripcock fitted. The fact that they were listed as permitted to run over the Widened Lines doesn't meant that they would have to have tripcocks - they could have been the second loco in a multiple or tandem working, or been hauled dead.
I was told many years ago by a former Hornsey driver that Class 09 was trialled on cross London freight, due to the problems being experience with the Class 15s. I don't know whether any locos were tripcock fitted for those trials.
'Baby Deltics' had tripcocks, and worked to Moorgate, but were subsequently taken off those duties due to concerns about noise and exhaust.
Classes 21 (NBL) and 28 (Metro-Vic Co-Bo) may also have been so fitted for working on the CWL as well as Classes 30/31 (Brush Type 2). I have also found this reference: www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS%20News%20178.pdfDoes this suggest that EE Type 1s (Class 20) were also fitted when D81XX class?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2010 9:34:19 GMT
Some of the ER London Area class 24s were certainly tripcock fitted. This included the, now preserved, D5054. In the OPC book 'Profile of the 24s/25s' there are a couple of pictures that show the fitting. The obvious one is a semi-circular air pipe fitted ahead of the leading edge of the bogie on the secondmans side leading to the tripcock itself. It is the outermost pipe on that side. The ER class 21s and 26s do not appear to have had tripcocks.
I don't think the Co-Bos would have been fitted as they were banned from Moorgate and cross-London work. Whether this was due to their smoking habit or weight distribution I am not sure. Smoke was certainly a factor in the banning of the 'Baby Deltics' from Moorgate work although this may have been a retrospective ban. I did read somewhere of one that had made the trip on commuter train though. Having looked carefully at what pictures I do have I cannot find any evidence of a tripcock on either type.
The same is true of the class 15. I have looked carefully and cannot see one on any of the pictures I have. One picture has what might be one under the battery box/fuel tank and just left of centre. However, I have a picture of a class 16 D8402 at Stratford when new and the tripcock is just visible inside the trailing end of the bogie on the secondmans side. Another picture however shows no such fitting on D8400.
Although I have looked I cannot find out whether the London based 20s had tripcocks. However Stratford had 20s until at least 1970 so it is not beyond the realms of fantasy.
The conclusion that I have come to, probably incorrectly, is that any Diesels that would have had tripcocks would have belonged to the Eastern region, specifically, the GE lines. Having said that, the pictures of 24s with tripcocks include GN allocated ones.
One aside with class 15s may be to examine a Heljan OO scale one. You never know.......
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Jul 13, 2010 13:52:09 GMT
The photo that I published in UNDERGROUND 9 was of D8242 at Mill Hill East, which I assume was based at Finsbury Park at the time? This would be 1962ish from memory. There is also a photo in there of an Up Broad Street train north of Drayton Park (down below) with a Class 21 at the front. I cannot however see of course any tripcock fitment to the BTH.
Class 24s on the LMR based at Willesden would have worked the CWL through to the Southern via Snow Hill ,as well as preumably on excursions. I can only recall DMMUs at Moorgate in the 1970s plus Class 31s on the ER trains via Kings Cross Suburban and York Road platform.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 13, 2010 20:44:05 GMT
I recall reading that some GW locos had tripcocks fitted for through workings via Paddington suburban. They also needed the ATC equipment locked up to avoid contact with the negative rail. (GW ATC was a contact suystem, unlike the inductive BR AWS)
I was surprised to read that the stock working the City Widened Lines in the 60s and 70s needed tripcocks as, so far as I am aware, they were by then entirely separate from the LT tracks. The CWL are certainly signalled to NR standards now? When was the changeover done - was it as late as the Bed-Pan electrification?
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
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Post by Oracle on Jul 14, 2010 6:37:01 GMT
Froim Wiki: The 9700 Class Pannier Tanks were a direct development of the 5700 Class. The prototype for the class, No.8700 (later 9700), was a rebuilt 5700 locomotive. They were specifically for working on the Metropolitan/Hammersmith & City lines between Paddington Stations and Smithfield Meat Market. They replaced 'Metro' and '633' class locomotives.
The eleven locomotives in the class had condensing apparatus that fed the exhaust steam back into the water tanks. The tanks themselves were shortened to make room for the external exhaust pipes and were extended down to the footplate in front of the cab to increase their capacity. As condensing the steam heated the water, a reciprocating pump (Weir pump) was fitted as a boiler feedwater pump because standard injectors will not work with hot water. The pumps led to (unsuccessful) tests with these locomotives acting as fire engines during World War II.
To work over the electrified underground lines, the 9700 Class locomotives had a special type of ATC equipment that lifted clear of the centre rail and had tripcock brake valves that matched the London Transport signalling system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2010 10:29:18 GMT
Having modelled one in OO scale I can confirm that the 97XX panniers had tripcocks. 8700 was rebuilt with condensing gear in the early thirties. The pannier water tanks were shortened to make room for the condensing pipe but the reduction in water capacity proved a problem. The loco was then rebuilt further with the pannier tanks extended downwards to the running plate and, renumbered 9700, was joined by new-build 9701-10 Although 8700 originally had the original 57XX low cab the second rebuild saw her receive a Collett 8751 style high cab. 9701-10 were built with the later cab. Had they all had the low cab it is odds on that LT would have acquired them instead of the 57XX locos they did get.
The tripcock equipment was fitted behind the footstep on the running plate ahead of the tanks. There is a downward connection from the pipe that runs along the running plate at this point. Before those who know me ask, no, the model isn't finished yet.......
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 20, 2010 7:31:53 GMT
Certainly the Finsbury Park class 31s had tripcocks for CWL use. the secondman had to nip down the side of the loco ayt York Way and reset the trip if the trip tester light didn't go out at the end of the platform. the2nd man would also have to cut the trip in at York Road. On the return trip, he'd cut it out on arrival at Kings Cross.
The effectiveness of the trip cock on an unfitted freight train is a moot point, as useful as a chocolate kettle, handbrake on a canoe etc. There was little point in putting the brake into emergency on the loco when there is no continuous brake on the train.
ISTR the sectional appendix for the GN said that non-tripcock locos could work over LT lines, but had to be double manned. I don't think the CoBo's would be small enough to fit on the widened lines.
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
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Post by Oracle on Jul 20, 2010 8:29:04 GMT
I never managed to see any trains at Kings X suburban, out of the CWL. It must have taken a supreme effort to restart the train on that incline. This page has a shot of the York Road starter: www.roscalen.com/signals/London/KXFP.htm#KingsX
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jul 31, 2010 23:41:10 GMT
Not really, you released the brake, applied power, and away she went. The 31s were quite powerful.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2010 11:33:05 GMT
;D ;D ;D Sorry. I'm still laughing at the line 'the 31s were quite powerful'! ;D ;D ;D When they arrived on the Southern they quickly became known as 'rice pudding engines' due to their inability to pull the skin off one! Suburban short-frame Mk1s would have been approx. 30-32 tons so seven of them would have been no more than 224 tons. A 73 on Diesel would move that!
With the class 28 Co-Bos size wouldn't have been the major issue. They were shorter than a 31 and less than two inches taller. Part of the problem was that the BR Civil Engineers got windy with the uneven spread of weight. They were banned on quite a few lines (including Southampton to Portsmouth.... I've never figured out why as the chances of one making it that far south before blowing up woud have been remote in the extreme!). More relevant was their ability to smoke! Two stroke Diesels were smoky beasts on BR in the 60s. The 23s, 28s and 'Deltics' are all evidence of this. Having said that, a cold 31 would give them a run for their money!
It is also evident that not all of the relevant classes were fitted. I have only seen one picture of a class 16 with tripcocks and I am sure that all 263 class 31s would not have them. There must have been a list at depots with the relevant numbers.
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Post by johnbee on Aug 1, 2010 15:59:18 GMT
I can remember seeing steam hauled BR trains of coal on the District Line at Hammersmith going to Kensington High Street coal depot. Did the locos hauling these trains have to have a tripcock fitted?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Aug 4, 2010 21:56:30 GMT
Not sure if the LM locos used on the Kenny coal trains were trip cock fitted. I reckon they were Cricklewood locos, so probably yes.
As for the 31's, only the FP and Hitchin fleet were tripcock fitted.
I've made some postings on the RMweb about their exploits, including a run of 102mph on a Cambridge buffet train, and lifting a 900ton ballast train out of Kings Cross one Sunday.
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
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Post by Oracle on Aug 4, 2010 22:30:40 GMT
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Aug 5, 2010 6:18:54 GMT
Don't forget there were 2 coal depots, one at High Street and one at West Kensington. I only ever saw the trains from platform level or waiting in the loop just west of Turnham Green. I wouldn't have known what to look for in that line of detail.
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