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Post by 21146 on Jul 11, 2010 20:53:36 GMT
From the GobLin Users website:
LOROL gave a presentation about station works. This was mainly aimed at those present representing the stations south of New Cross Gate recently transferred to LOROL and described the deep cleaning and 'spruce up' work these stations would be receiving, as NLL and B-GO stations received in 2008. The Phase 3 works were briefly touched on but enough for us to ask if there was actually any planning or timescales in this work because in addition to the "scatter-gun" approach, it was over a year behind schedule. Leyton Midland Road has "had the builders in" for around six months with little to show for it. We learnt that LOROL was powerless to locate the new platform "roundel" type station name boards under platform lights because the TfL London Rail signage specification enforced by TfL's Rail for London (RfL) contract compliance organisation specified that platform name boards must be erected at intervals which do not coincide with the platform lamp posts (as has happened at Kilburn High Road and Headstone Lane)! Further, a change to the above TfL London Rail signage specification means that the old BR "arrows of indecision" logo which is now the standard DfT National Rail logo is to be removed from stations that only have London Overground services calling at them. How will the average potential passenger know the station connects with the national rail network or that national rail tickets are available at the station?
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Post by thirstquensher on Jul 12, 2010 21:01:39 GMT
I for one am glad. Finally no indecision - either it's the London Overground network or it's part of the National Rail network. Yes, it's both, but does it have to be indicated as such? There are plenty of Network Railcard etc. promotional posters and leaflets around promoting the ATOC membership. It always made about as much sense as it would to have National Rail symbols on LUL stations - and before you retort "oh yes, but LUL aren't a TOC, are they?" Well, what is they operate then? It was trains, last time I looked.
The average punter doesn't really care about the historical, political and ownership reasons behind a network having two symbols - it just looks sloppy and smacks of - quite appropriately, "indecision". The original intention was not to have the double arrow where only LO operated - that was a last minute change imposed against TfL's will from what I can tell, because it only appeared in the signage standards after all the draft visualisations (and signage standards) stated quite categorically the NR symbol should only appear where LO connects with *other* NR services.
I have to admit though, I've never heard of this RfT business. I've never seen any reference to it on the TfL website.
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Post by bicbasher on Jul 12, 2010 23:08:25 GMT
Are the ELL stations keeping the double-arrow logo south of NXG seeing as they're also served by a 'proper' NR TOC?
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Post by glenntandh on Oct 6, 2010 10:39:18 GMT
BGOLUG believes that the NR logo should remain on LO stations that are part of the NR network. It is a network. All stations that are part of the NR network are required to display the logo on the front of the station. The NR logo is an indication that the station is linked to the national network and NR products are available.
The 'average punter' does not appreciate the subtleties of the orange circle behind the blue bar. They look at it and think 'Underground'. So much so that many thought that the trains from Overground stations would be on strike last Monday.
BGOLUG worries that this move, like the refusal to put 'London Connections' maps inside LO trains shows an intention of TfL London Rail to slowly withdraw NR products like railcards and full through ticketing from all stations that only have LO trains calling at them.
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Post by glenntandh on Oct 7, 2010 13:30:51 GMT
I have to admit though, I've never heard of this RfT business. I've never seen any reference to it on the TfL website. From the TfL website: "Rail for London Limited
A wholly owned subsidiary of Transport Trading Limited. It will carry out the infrastructure upgrade for the North London line and enter into a concession agreement for the London Rail Concession.
Company No: 05965930
Place of registration: England and Wales
Registered Office: Windsor House, 42-50 Victoria Street, London SW1H 0TL
VAT No: 756 2770 08"They have a whole floor at LOROL's Finchley Road HQ to carry out their contract compliance role and an army of auditors touring the system checking KPIs (Key Performance Indicators), among other things that posters are displayed in the specified poster frames and people like Routemaster Keith are behaving themselves. Any failure to meet contracted specifications results in a fine on LOROL. My understanding is that RfL have fined LOROL quite a lot since they started the concession. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2010 16:47:38 GMT
people like Routemaster Keith are behaving themselves. Where is the laughing hysterically smiley? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2010 21:39:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2010 21:51:13 GMT
BGOLUG worries that this move, like the refusal to put 'London Connections' maps inside LO trains shows an intention of TfL London Rail to slowly withdraw NR products like railcards and full through ticketing from all stations that only have LO trains calling at them. It would be a shame if they did. It's great to be able to get a day return from Surrey Quays to Brighton with Gold Card discount. Although 2 changes are required, it's less hassle than going to Victoria, and even less hassle than going from London Bridge where only one change (Canada Water to London Bridge via Jubilee) would be required but that means trapsing through London Bridge and waiting at the horrible London Bridge stn for the horrible FCC trains |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2010 10:37:38 GMT
The 'average punter' does not appreciate the subtleties of the orange circle behind the blue bar. They look at it and think 'Underground'. So much so that many thought that the trains from Overground stations would be on strike last Monday. Not helped by a quirk of the Journey Planner which doesn't seem to recognise Stratford to Clapham Junction as a valid route if you deselect "tube". Tried to find how to do this on a strike day. The default route is via Liverpool St and the Drain, or (not quite as quick) Jub to Waterloo. Deselect "Tube" and you get a route via DLR to Greenwich or Lewisham, then Waterloo East or, via Lewisham, Peckham and Battersea Park! Select "minimum changes" and you go from Liverpool Street to Waterloo by bus. Select "Rail only" and you walk from Liverpool Street to London Bridge. No way could I get it to send me via the LO, despite there being a direct train at the time I selected, which takes no more time than the route via Greenwich, and is faster than the rest! .and incidentally I agree that the LO orange logo is far too similar to the LU red one - in some lights they are indistinguishable |
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Post by bassmike on Oct 21, 2010 9:52:37 GMT
I think the whole business of london underground/london overground is typical of the misguided ( term used leniently) mindset of uk organisations in general. Where else would you have somewhere like chesham with a red l/u sign, and rotherhithe /wapping etc: with orange l/o sign?:To my mind the whole thing(separate organisations etc) is complete b-------s. Also while I'm on about it ,if the money wasted on this and many other things had been spent long ago on converting LU to third rail pick-up like anywhere else then far more interworking/flexibilitywould be possible. Or am I living in cloud coockoo land? ---- is that how you spell cookoo?
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Post by bassmike on Oct 21, 2010 11:04:58 GMT
separate from my last post and I 'm not sure where this actually belongs, but I saw a picture of a german DB high-speed train on a test run in St pancras station alongside a eurostar yesterday. I'm not sure if this is the first time a full UIC profile train has been this far?
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Post by mcmaddog on Oct 21, 2010 12:23:25 GMT
separate from my last post and I 'm not sure where this actually belongs, but I saw a picture of a german DB high-speed train on a test run in St pancras station alongside a eurostar yesterday. I'm not sure if this is the first time a full UIC profile train has been this far? Would the locos that rescued the Eurostar last winter not count? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2010 15:10:03 GMT
---- is that how you spell cookoo? Cuckoo. |
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Post by bassmike on Oct 21, 2010 15:16:29 GMT
thank you
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Post by bassmike on Oct 21, 2010 15:20:15 GMT
re UIC gauge --yes I forgot about the eurostar rescue
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Post by Rich32 on Oct 22, 2010 19:31:45 GMT
The remainder of the discussion from this thread can be found here as it had drifted off topic into another of it's own. Edit for spelling. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2010 13:46:38 GMT
The ambiguity over London Overground's status even extends into fares.
I've travelled from Charlton to Shoreditch High Street (via New Cross) and have been charged £2 (zones 1-3 rail only fare) - and this fare seems to hold all the way up to Dalston Junction. I took this as meaning LO was counted as an NR service if I changed from another NR line. (Oddly, that means it's cheaper for me to go to Shoreditch High Street from Charlton than from an ELL station in Zone 3.)
But the other night I did the same journey, but then went on to Hackney Central... and got stung for £3.10 (zones 1-3 rail + TfL fare). Which wasn't helpful.
Either it is a NR service, or it isn't. I wish there'd be some clarity. Despite the great job done with stations, most of LO runs to a lower frequency than plenty of National Rail services (Southeastern's Greenwich line, for example) so it seems perverse to charge extra for the privilege of a worse service and seeing orange roundels.
I get the feeling Ken Livingstone introduced the LO brand to put pressure on the London NR companies to get their act together, and maybe the direction behind it has changed or got a bit lost under the change of mayoralty.
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Post by harlesden on Oct 23, 2010 14:17:47 GMT
20 minutes service on the Watford-Euston line (30 minutes on Sundays)
15 minutes service on the NLL line (supplemented in the rush hours by extra trains (originating at Clapham Junction) between Willesden Junction and Stratford.
Plenty of NR stations (GWR suburban) which once had a fairly frequent service now have the same amount of trains - but half of them no longer stop (Hanwell, West Ealing, Acton Main Line)
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Post by bicbasher on Oct 23, 2010 18:14:19 GMT
Darryl, how ironic that you pay the NR Oyster fare to Shoreditch from Charlton, where as I use Forest Hill and pay the TfL fare of £2.40 to Shoreditch for using what is technically a NR service.
Oh well, a small price to pay to ensure I pay £2.40 to also go to a Tube station instead of the extra £1.10 on top.
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Post by thirstquensher on Oct 23, 2010 23:09:54 GMT
Maybe there should be multiple classes of TOCs, all of which can affiliate with ATOC (as an advocate between the interests of themselves and Network Rail), but not all of which have to go under the "National Rail" banner. It could be:
Class A: Ex-BR franchise
Class B: Local Authority Passenger Transport Executive (e.g. TfL, GMPTE, SPT, etc.)
Class C: Open Access Operator
Only Class A would be required to promote National Rail as a set of services, products and promotions. Classes B and C could be encouraged to, but not held to them.
Under this regime, the whole discussion/negotiation as to whether a service that could potentially get "taken over" in terms of management by a PTE would be held in those terms with the DfT - i.e. "Proposal to re-classify 'Route X' from Class A to Class B" (or even Class C if a Class A/B TOC threatens closure/curtailment or demonstrates an unwillingness to invest).
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