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Post by dannyofelmpark on Jun 25, 2010 18:09:37 GMT
After a bit of a difficault journey home from Embankment tonight I think I have realised why some trains and not others are so over crowded in the peaks
So I emailed this complaint
There is a problem which occours on and off with the District Line eastbound service in the evening peak mainly to do with the sequence of trains.
As an example if the platform describer at Embankment shows the following:
1 - BARKING
2 - DAGENHAM EAST
3 - UPMINSTER
then there is normally no problem as those travelling do stations up to Dagenham East will travel on the first 2 trains, leaving the Upminster train less crowded for those like me travelling to Elm Park and beyond.
However in the situation tonight when the platform describer showed
1 - UPMINSTER
2 - BARKING
3 - CIRCLE LINE
Then there is a problem in that those customer travelling to stations up to Barking all pile on the Upminster service together with those who require stations east of Barking towards Upminster.
The result of this is that our train 1 - the Upminster service is so crowded that when train 2 - the Barking service arrives it is almost empty as those customers who could have been on the Barking service are all on the Upminster service in front.
The main reason for this complaint is that I have a physical disability that means I need a seat and if I stand up for too long I am likey to have a fall
but apart from that I am sure that you regularly have complaints about over crowding and this incident tonight (although it has happened many times before) highlights one of the reasons where the public are to blame because as an example in this situation if an Upminster train is first before a Barking train then those customers travelling up to Barking should be waiting for the Barking train and not making the Upminster service in front more over crowded and depriving other customers travelling a longer distance of a seat.
As a suggestion I think that if short workings are placed behind trains going all the way then the best way to help this problem would be if station staff announced something like,
"the next train arriving is an Upminster service this is Followed by a Barking service - in order to overcome overcrowding on the Upminster service it is recommended that those of you travelling to stations up to Barking please wait for the Barking service behind. This is to help you all have a more comfortable journey"
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 25, 2010 19:09:08 GMT
"the next train arriving is an Upminster service this is Followed by a Barking service - in order to overcome overcrowding on the Upminster service it is recommended that those of you travelling to stations up to Barking please wait for the Barking service behind. This is to help you all have a more comfortable journey" The only problem with this is it goes across the sub-surface mantra of "catch the first train as far as you can, then change". |
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Post by harlesden on Jun 25, 2010 19:11:18 GMT
If an Upminster train is the first train, it is natural for everybody to get on it.
You seem to be suggesting that the Upminster train should always be the 3rd train which is, of course impossible. There is no "short workings placed behind" because the service is run in sequence - hence the impossibility of the Upminster train always being the 3rd train as you seem to think is the ideal situation.
I'm not sure how many passengers would heed the type of announcement you suggest as everybody wants to get home as quickly as possible. Do you really expect somebody living in Barking to allow an Upminster train to come and go thereby delaying himself or herself for some minutes?
Full trains are normal in the rush hour because it is the time everybody is on the move. If trains were never crowded, you would find your level of service being reduced as a train company cannot afford to run half full trains just as an airline cannot afford to run half full planes. The service is geared towards accommodating all who need to travel. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee about being able to travel in comfort at all times of the day.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 25, 2010 19:15:34 GMT
Unless I'm in a desperate hurry I will often wait for a train or bus if I *know* one is behind, especially if it is a short turn train or partroute bus; as I'd rather be 3 minutes later and have a seat.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2010 19:38:01 GMT
I don't know if the order of trains you gave is the timetabled one or the result of late or early running. As to advising people to get on the train behind, good luck - I wouldn't!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 25, 2010 19:58:27 GMT
As we run through any sequence, the Upminster train will have to end up first at some point otherwise it will never arrive!!
I would politely suggest you either wait for your ideal sequence to occur, or do what most people travelling the length of the line do - get a c2c train from Fenchurch Street to Upminster then a District back to Elm Park.
The District is LU's busiest line (oh yes it is!!), so there's no way on earth you can expect a change to suit just a few customers using 4 stations at the east end of the line. This is most certainly one of those bigger picture instances where the bigger picture far outweighs the little bit at the end.
I know you won't like reading this post, but this is the reality.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 25, 2010 20:21:38 GMT
I was going to post an addition, but I can't put it better than Colin and the others.
EVERY passenger is ALWAYS told to "catch the first train as far as it goes then change" (as rincew1ind has already quoted).
And Colin has put in detail the exact reasons and implications, so take note.
Sorry, Dan, you are living in an area of unreality if you think the whole of the DR can be organized just for you: if your disabilities are that bad surely your local authority will pay for alternative transport.
just a final thought: suppose your idea was tried and your 'end of sequence' Upminster train got held up. It would then be at the start of the next sequence. Have you any ideas for sorting that one??
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 25, 2010 20:43:00 GMT
just a final thought: suppose your idea was tried and your 'end of sequence' Upminster train got held up. It would then be at the start of the next sequence. Have you any ideas for sorting that one?? I can also envisage a scenario where "something" happens and the first two trains are extended and the latter cut back. Taking the first train gets you home, taking the third might get you home, but a lot later! |
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 25, 2010 20:48:04 GMT
Northern line has 206m journeys annually, compared to 172m on the District! According to TFL anyway.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 25, 2010 21:06:08 GMT
Unless I'm in a desperate hurry I will often wait for a train or bus if I *know* one is behind, especially if it is a short turn train or partroute bus; as I'd rather be 3 minutes later and have a seat. "IF": far too often have I let a crowded train go on the promise of another right behind, only for the DMI to then change to "cancelled" just as the first train passes out of sight. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 25, 2010 21:09:20 GMT
The Victoria Line beats both the District and the Northern for pax/mile (and I think also pax/station, nut I'm not sure on that).
I don't know what it's like on the District, but certainly eastbound on the Central Line during the evening peak the trains can be crush loaded at the front (until South Woodford anyway) but with seats available towards the rear (Leyton and Leytonstone pax fill the very back, but not as badly as the South Woodford commuters fill the front). The exact opposite is true for westbound HSTs from Paddington - go to the front of the very front train (even in the shoulders of the rush hour) and you'll rarely not get a seat in coach A or B, while the rear of standard class is heaving.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 25, 2010 21:27:23 GMT
I suppose it depends on what angle you choose to use.... I can't find anything to back myself up, although Tubeprune has a stat on his site I could quote: Most passengers on a line: District 180 million passengers over 60 km length. That is possibly the statistic I had in mind as having read at some time or other but I can't be sure  And that's the thing; the Victoria line will be busier on account that is has a lot less stations and is one of the shortest lines. The Northern operates more trains than any other line. Even Chris's example says a lot. You can't base your findings on the trains you travel on as it all depends on which carriage you happen to be in at the time. As a driver I have a good view of the whole train and we often leave people behind during the peaks on the District - some through choice as they've learnt with experience when to let one go, and some because there's literally no space left. I genuinely think the changes to the Circle last December haven't helped the District. More often than not, the Circle line did manage to actually provide it's 8 minute advertised service. Today it's reduced 10 minutes. Are we on the District now taking up the slack and thus carrying more passengers? I think we are. But it's like the old "which station is the busiest" question....most sources would agree that Victoria is the busiest station, but TfL says that's over the course of a year - the busiest in the morning peak is apparently Waterloo. If you go with the media, they almost always have it as Kings Cross. Anyway, slap on the wrist as we're starting to drift from the purpose of the thread... |
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Post by dannyofelmpark on Jun 26, 2010 11:33:52 GMT
Sorry, Dan, you are living in an area of unreality if you think the whole of the DR can be organized just for you: if your disabilities are that bad surely your local authority will pay for alternative transport. just a final thought: suppose your idea was tried and your 'end of sequence' Upminster train got held up. It would then be at the start of the next sequence. Have you any ideas for sorting that one??i did'nt do any of this "just for me", I was also thinking of all the people who complain about overcrowding ( on any transport service ) and when I saw all those Barkings and other shorts after the Upminster hardly anyone was on them i thought so there are some less crowded trains that could benifit some people |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2010 12:37:29 GMT
Sorry, Dan, you are living in an area of unreality if you think the whole of the DR can be organized just for you: if your disabilities are that bad surely your local authority will pay for alternative transport. just a final thought: suppose your idea was tried and your 'end of sequence' Upminster train got held up. It would then be at the start of the next sequence. Have you any ideas for sorting that one??i did'nt do any of this "just for me", I was also thinking of all the people who complain about overcrowding ( on any transport service ) and when I saw all those Barkings and other shorts after the Upminster hardly anyone was on them i thought so there are some less crowded trains that could benifit some people Or if the Barking service is not as busy, just get on that and then wait at Barking, a load of people for places as Mile End, West Ham and the like would have got off by then. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 26, 2010 13:16:41 GMT
Or if the Barking service is not as busy, just get on that and then wait at Barking, a load of people for places as Mile End, West Ham and the like would have got off by then. Nicely put - in other words, if 'they' won't use the empty trains, use'em yourself and change. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2010 22:02:51 GMT
Cheers Phil ;D I have had the same thing on the Northern line loads of times, going down to Morden from the Charing Cross line. In the peaks a lot of people will hang about to get on the through Morden trains, these get absolutely rammed. I have let a Morden go before and jumped on the Kennington train behind, then at Kennington the first ex Bank service that turns up is quite heavy. If another ex Bank service is lets say, 1 min away and the next tip out (ex CHX) is 2 mins, I jump on the second ex Bank train. Works a treat, ok I lose a few minutes but get a much better ride down.
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Post by jakehn54 on Jun 26, 2010 23:31:05 GMT
Or if you are not able to stand up, ask to use the priority seat...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2010 23:50:14 GMT
Cheers Phil ;D I have had the same thing on the Northern line loads of times, going down to Morden from the Charing Cross line. In the peaks a lot of people will hang about to get on the through Morden trains, these get absolutely rammed. I have let a Morden go before and jumped on the Kennington train behind, then at Kennington the first ex Bank service that turns up is quite heavy. If another ex Bank service is lets say, 1 min away and the next tip out (ex CHX) is 2 mins, I jump on the second ex Bank train. Works a treat, ok I lose a few minutes but get a much better ride down. One thing I forgot to mention, I actually stand a lot of the time, just don't like standing while squished up though! I find that if I sit down and I have people either side this is worse than standing in your own bit of space! I use the Victoria line most days now (in addition to the aforementioned Northern) and looking at how small the seats and armrests are on the 09s I'll be standing a lot more. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 2:37:14 GMT
i did'nt do any of this "just for me", I was also thinking of all the people who complain about overcrowding ( on any transport service ) and when I saw all those Barkings and other shorts after the Upminster hardly anyone was on them i thought so there are some less crowded trains that could benifit some people It's not just short workings. The other day I had a Hammersmith 8 mins Hammersmith 9 mins The first train was predicatably packed, the next, just behind it was virtually empty. Or something similar on the Met, when people will cram onto an already busy Northbound train at Baker Street, which started at Aldgate, in preference to the train starting at Baker Street sometimes only a minute or so behind it. Or when passengers won't move along the platform, but instead will let the first train depart simply to get their position on the next train (or the one behind that). |
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