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Post by jg on Jun 22, 2010 20:16:53 GMT
I was born in 70's and spent the first ten years of my life living in Gants Hill until moving to the south coast and have retained an interest in LU ever since. I have a few questions and wondered if any one here could answer them for me.
1) I have a very early memory of waiting for a train at Gants Hill (Westbound) cica end 70's and seeing a 1973 stock train passing through the station out of service, possibly just a short maybe 3 car unit. Would this have been possible or is my mind playing tricks on me?
2) I remember frequently waiting for westbound trains at Mile End again late 70's or early 80's. Not sure if they are now covered but there were loads of cable runs and pipes running along the far wall and this ran into a recess about half way along the platform length. In this recess was a door which was what I remember high up. What was behind this door?
3) I have great memories of riding the 1962 stock. I miss the sounds, smell, ride and guard. I used to always pester my mum to let us sit next to the guard. These trains had a great appeal for me and maybe im the only one but I miss them. Would it ever be possible/realistic to run a 1962 stock on the central again for enthusiasts to ride on, maybe a one off special trip?
Thanks for any answers and excuse my rambling.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Jun 22, 2010 20:36:42 GMT
As I grew up in Gants Hill, by the sound of it about 10 years earlier than you did, I too have memories of Gants Hill station - I wonder if the 1973 stock you saw was actually a 1967 4-car train, as there used to be one 1967 stock on the Hainault - Woodford shuttle, that would have been swapped over with one from the Victoria line every so often.
Sometimes I'd travel into London by going the long way round the loop, and travelling on a shuttle train on a 1960 stock train, sometimes in the 1960 DM, other times in one of the converted pre-1938 stock trailers. Somewhere I think I have a photo of one of the interiors of the converted cars.
Thanks for the memories.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 22, 2010 21:35:04 GMT
I miss the 62 stock too, especially when they used to belt along between Mile End and Stratford, and down the ramp west of Leyton! As for running an enthusiasts train, it would need to be fitted with ATP equipment so as to be able to be signalled properly - the Central line's 1992 stock has ATP / ATO.
Although unlikely ever to happen, the Sandite 1962 trains are ATP fitted, so it's by no means impossible. However, over zealous rules and regulations post more and more obstacles so such runs as time goes on.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 22, 2010 21:59:43 GMT
Cravens have a 1962 train, which they are restoring, so never say never.
It may have been a three car 1960 stock train, when the 1927 and 1931 cars were scrapped and replaced by a single 1938 trailer.
I miss the 1962 stock too, although I travelled on the 59stock more as a young'un.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2010 22:30:37 GMT
It should not have been possible for 1973 stock to work through Gants Hill, as it is my understanding that a combination of the Central London Railway section's substandard tunnel clearances plus the curves between Liverpool St. and Bank mean that 'long' stock is prohibited from operating on the Central line.
This is one reason - possibly the reason - why the 1992 stock was built to the older short length of approx 16.2 metres, whereas 1973 stock cars are approximately 17.6 metres.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2010 22:52:12 GMT
The 1973 Tube Stock referred to could have been one of the two three-car units of the Experimental Tube Train (ETT), units 892 and 894, both long since been converted to standard.
Unit 892 - Ruislip to Hainault 27.02.79. Hainault to Acton 23.06.85.
892 carried passengers very spasmodically on the Hainault-Woodford line, first day 25.07.83.
My memories of the Central (and in fact all Underground lines) are from the early/mid-1950s and the Pre-1938 Tube Stock. I could ramble on - but better not!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 7:23:50 GMT
The 1973 Tube Stock referred to could have been one of the two three-car units of the Experimental Tube Train (ETT), units 892 and 894, both long since been converted to standard. Unit 892 - Ruislip to Hainault 27.02.79. Hainault to Acton 23.06.85. 892 carried passengers very spasmodically on the Hainault-Woodford line, first day 25.07.83. This clearly demolishes my belief that 1973 stock could not run on the Central line. Perhaps it also means that when a 1973 stock unit ran as a track recording train, this too was allowed on the Central. Somewhere there is a document which lists all the route restrictions for LUL stock, and includes special conditions under which restricted stocks could run over certain sections. Unfortunately I've not been able to find this document on the web. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 23, 2010 10:05:04 GMT
That's because the document to which you refer is no longer easily accessible on the web.
It is on LU's operational standards website which used to be fairly simple to access even though it was only ever meant to be accessible to staff only. Such is the security applied to that site now that I can't even access it on LU's own PC's!!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 23, 2010 12:03:12 GMT
That's because the document to which you refer is no longer easily accessible on the web. I'm pretty sure that the salient parts of it have been quoted on this Forum - ISTR something about 4 car trains of 73 stock being permitted in certain places, other more modern stocks 95/96 not being permitted due to the inverters for the air con being a possible cause of signalling faults. Perhaps bits of it were quoted by aspect. <thinks> EDIT: However - given the vintage of the question it would be covered by the old ?Section 11 to the Rule Book - which I've got a copy and I'm pretty sure Ben has also. As I'm unfortunately 300 miles away from my library, and using some fairly flaky computers I can neither search my electronic documentation or my physical documentation. Paging Ben... Can you check the stock restrictions on the Central? If the question is still outstanding when I return to Cantuar early next week, I'll have a look. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 23, 2010 12:41:02 GMT
My copy is dated 2/11/2009, simple says:
"1973TS Other Lines- Not gauged for operation on the Bakerloo, Central, Northern and Victoria Lines."
Further down interestingly reads: "Central Line- 1992TS originally built for use on the Waterloo & City Line must not be used on the Central Line."
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 23, 2010 12:42:31 GMT
Yeah - ISTR the W&C stock has some modification that could interfere with the spot loops on the Central.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 18:36:55 GMT
But then we all forget TRC666, a 1973 stock trailer, which with it's regular 1960 stock pilot cars L132 and L133 visit just about all of the network, including Bakerloo, Central, Northern and Victoria Lines. The only restrictions that apply are:
Bakerloo - Can use the Piccadilly Circus crossover, subject to the restrictions shown.
Must not operate on No. 1 road at London Road Depot
Permitted to operate on Network Rail. The main static converter must be switched ‘off’ when operating on Network Rail Lines.
Edit: After remembering the newer issue!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 23, 2010 19:26:52 GMT
Yeah - ISTR the W&C stock has some modification that could interfere with the spot loops on the Central. And the fact that they are quite a few mods behind the Central line units! |
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Post by jg on Jun 23, 2010 20:20:17 GMT
Thanks for all your replies guys. Maybe it's the mind playing tricks but I thought I had seen a 73 stock all those years ago as I thought I had seen a lower red panel on the front.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 23, 2010 20:34:23 GMT
There were a couple of 1962 stock driving motors that had their lower front ends painted red in the late 1970's as an experiment. Perhaps it was one of those that you saw?
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Jun 23, 2010 20:34:55 GMT
There was one train of 1962 stock that did have the bottom of the front of the cab red.
Looking at the 1990 edition of Brian Hardy's London Underground Rolling Stock it was DMs 1442 and 1445, so painted in July 1979. I think I went on one of them once.
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Post by miff on Jun 23, 2010 20:36:45 GMT
In the early 80s I remember one 62 stock unit which had been given a lower red front panel for some reason.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 24, 2010 21:59:00 GMT
Funnily enough I was even further from my copy of Appendix 11 than MRFS!
Can only find the 'Ammendments to the rule book' (1989) which has a section on appendix 11, however I don't think its that much different (if atall) apart from the addition of 83ts to the table.
In summary, west of White City, all tube stocks are permitted and all surface stocks prohibited.
Twixt White City and Liverpool St, 62ts is permitted and all surface stocks prohibited. Also permitted after authorisation by timetable notice/head controller:
38ts with positive shoebeams etc. removed
56/59/60/72ts with high lift shoegear, and deicing beams removed
67ts with shoebeam safety brackets removed and high lift shoegear and tripcocks fitted
73/83ts with shoebeams and safety brackets removed
East of Liv. St. all tube stocks permitted (67ts between Hainault and Woodford only). Also permitted after authorisation by timetable notice/head controller is 67ts with tripcocks fitted, and prohibbited is 67ts except as stated, and all surface stocks.
I suggest that a most useful reference might be the 'Central line supplement to Appendix 11 to the rule book', dated 1984; or a predecessor if any.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 24, 2010 22:08:28 GMT
Just as a comment on carriage lengths; it was once thought that the maximum length of cars for all the early tube lines was in the region of 52'. However, as the piccadilly and northern prove, with some planning and mitigation works longer lengths are possible. Naturally decreasing a carriages width, or tapering the ends and middle would also work.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 24, 2010 22:48:56 GMT
What is the reason for the prohibition on surface stock between Leyton and Epping / Newbury Park via Hainault (other than the difficulty in getting them there) as aren't all the structures mainline gauge?
Similarly where the line runs parallel to NR metals west of Greenford?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 26, 2010 15:41:18 GMT
Whats got to be remembered is that before modern laws infected the railways many such 'rules' were never exactly set in stone; more a strictish guide to the way things ought to go 99.9% of the time. So, yes, surface stock would fit north of Leyton (bar Leytonstone - Newbury Park), north of East Finchley, north of Queens Park, and west of East Acton, but the chance or reason for such things occuring would have been so minimal/unusual that it would have been more straightforward to cover it as a one off, as-and-when.
Ironically the need for surface stock to use the western Central disappered because of a connection being built, whereas the building of two other connections (croxley and chelney) may well see surface stock being cleared for two other sections (QP - Watford Jnct and the eastern Central).
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Post by auxsetreq on Jun 27, 2010 10:56:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 16:19:34 GMT
I definitely recall riding on 1973 stock between Woodford and Roding Valley quite a few times (lazy b*gger - yes I know). I think it was three cars long, had red lower cab ends and either the front car or the rear was full of equipment at the driving ends. It wasn't about for long but absoloutely 100% it was a 73, not a 67 (which was common in those days and not a 60).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 27, 2010 19:18:50 GMT
Must have been the ETT then
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 19:57:14 GMT
ETT it certainly was - no other 1973 has ever been out the east end of the Central Line.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 27, 2010 20:52:41 GMT
ETT it certainly was - no other 1973 has ever been out the east end of the Central Line. Was that the one fitted with thyristor control? |
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Post by ruislip on Jun 27, 2010 21:34:55 GMT
In some of my Underground Guides up to 1970, they listed an up BR train from Epping to Liverpool St in the first train section for the Central Line Epping/Hainault to Ealing Bdwy/West Ruislip. |
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Post by t697 on Jun 27, 2010 22:00:56 GMT
ETT it certainly was - no other 1973 has ever been out the east end of the Central Line. Was that the one fitted with thyristor control? It certainly was. It would be the one with Westinghouse made thyristor equipment. The equipment was underframe mounted as normal but the area from the cab backwall to the first set of double doors on each DM car was partitioned off. It contained an additional signalling frequency monitor to check the equipment didn't generate unsafe levels of signalling equipment interference. These areas became known as cabooses. This unit was 892/893. The other one, 894/895 had GEC Traction thyristor equipment. I seem to recall that something nasty happened to one of the motors on that one, curtailing testing at Ruislip depot. 892/893 only ran in service for a very few weeks and was not very reliable. OK, really it wasn't reliable at all and needed a riding engineer/technician to perform occasional resets of the equipment and safety monitors or to help the crew to get it to limp out of the way! Both units then had all the experimental equipment removed and conventional 1973TS equipment installed, which had already been bought for this purpose as it was always intended that the thyristor equipment was only experimental. |
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