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Post by johnbee on Jun 20, 2010 20:45:09 GMT
In the Railway Magazine for May/June 1949 there is a paragraph to the effect that the Chairman of LTE announced on March 4 1949 that London Transport would soon be starting preliminary work of an extension of the Bakerloo Line from Elephant & Castle to Camberwell Green. Did the preliminary works take place and if so what were they?
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Post by superteacher on Jun 20, 2010 20:54:18 GMT
From what I've read. they might have done something at the end of the Elephant and Castle sidings to see how they could be extended into the running lines to Camberwell, but I don't think much else was done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 21:25:10 GMT
I agree with superteacher re the work done - or not done.
However, detailed signalling plans were prepared and a sketch of these appeared in a recent issue of Underground News. In fact I have seen two sets of signalling plans for the Camberwell extension, one without an intermediate station and another with - at "Camberwell Gate".
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jun 20, 2010 22:05:48 GMT
I have read (I think on this Board) that new sidings were built at Elephant. The original ones pointed toward Bricklayers' Arms. The new,less cramped ones were built on the line of the Camberwell Extension. It was conjectured that a pilot tunnel was built at least part of the way,with a shaft at the site of the intermediate station.The subsequent use of this conjectured tunnel has been the subject of wild speculation.... I always thought the intermediate station was to be called WALWORTH Gate,and somewhere I have a map with that name marked.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 20, 2010 22:09:47 GMT
There was certainly an awful lot of theoretical work put into the Camberwell extension - as well as the signalling plans, I've seen *very* detailed distance/time curves and braking characteristics analysis vs loadings/train composition [full or divided working].
Unfortunately, I can't remember OTTOMH if the calculations included Camberwell Gate or not - but as the sheets were almost duplicated, I suspect there were two complete sets.
I've also seen a signalling plan for the centre reversing siding at Lambeth North, which was related to the Camberwell extension.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 20, 2010 22:14:46 GMT
I always thought the intermediate station was to be called WALWORTH Gate,and somewhere I have a map with that name marked. No, absolutely Camberwell Green EDIT: Gate (oops); you can't see any evidence of the indian ink being scraped off the linen - ie the original plan has not been renamed. What date was that map, slugabed, please?
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jun 20, 2010 22:28:50 GMT
As I remember,it was an A-Z-type map of the very early post-war period. My map collection is as large as your WTT collection,but nowhere near as organised.I will launch a search,and let you know what I find,by PM if the thread has gone cold.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 20, 2010 22:47:49 GMT
I have read (I think on this Board) that new sidings were built at Elephant. The original ones pointed toward Bricklayers' Arms. The new,less cramped ones were built on the line of the Camberwell Extension. It was conjectured that a pilot tunnel was built at least part of the way,with a shaft at the site of the intermediate station.The subsequent use of this conjectured tunnel has been the subject of wild speculation.... I always thought the intermediate station was to be called WALWORTH Gate,and somewhere I have a map with that name marked. The sidings were indeed re-aligned in preparation for Camberwell, the originals were aligned beneath New Kent Road and were replaced by longer ones beneath Walworth Road. I believe the empty original sidings tunnels remain, no doubt accessed by an inconspicuous looking bolthole somewhere off the southbound new siding. The plans show nothing continuing beyond the end of the present sidings, the only features of note are a cable shaft leading up to Elephant & Castle Substation, and a vent/construction shaft leading up to the surface off the southbound siding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2010 11:07:44 GMT
There was certainly an awful lot of theoretical work put into the Camberwell extension - as well as the signalling plans, I've seen *very* detailed distance/time curves and braking characteristics analysis vs loadings/train composition [full or divided working]. Unfortunately, I can't remember OTTOMH if the calculations included Camberwell Gate or not - but as the sheets were almost duplicated, I suspect there were two complete sets. I've also seen a signalling plan for the centre reversing siding at Lambeth North, which was related to the Camberwell extension. What sort of terminus design was planned for the Camberwell terminus?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 21, 2010 11:34:42 GMT
A pal of mine who was a driver. but has since retired, went exploring down the tunnels at the Elephant many years ago. He thought that he might end up at Camberwell and prove that the borings had gone that far. However instead he found the plug and evidence that the tunnels don't go much further therefore. I am not sure whether my friend advised me that the plug was a bricked-up wal or I read it online. I also seem to recall that someone had been down there and had found a 'hole' in the wall (in the SB?) that could be peered-through and this confirmed the very end of the tunnels.
I do wonder whether the then LTE acquired properties in connection with the stations etc. and whether these were subsequently disposed-of or still form part of the estate?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 21, 2010 14:53:59 GMT
As it appeared on the RAILWAYS maps of June 1949 (449/858M/500,000) and Jan 1950 (449/858M/500,000): tinyurl.com/347c58d
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2010 16:22:28 GMT
I believe BAET has a photo of the cast-iron plug at the far end of one of the sidings in one of his photo albums.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 21, 2010 17:14:55 GMT
There was certainly an awful lot of theoretical work put into the Camberwell extension - as well as the signalling plans, I've seen *very* detailed distance/time curves and braking characteristics analysis vs loadings/train composition [full or divided working]. Unfortunately, I can't remember OTTOMH if the calculations included Camberwell Gate or not - but as the sheets were almost duplicated, I suspect there were two complete sets. I've also seen a signalling plan for the centre reversing siding at Lambeth North, which was related to the Camberwell extension. What sort of terminus design was planned for the Camberwell terminus? Three platforms 1 and 2/3, three sidings (scissors crossovers between the middle and outer roads) - trains from 3 could go to all sidings, 2 likewise, but from 1 you could only go to one or middle (2). Diverging junction in the SB to platforms 3 and 1, scissors crossover between 2 and 3, facing crossover between 3 and 2 on leaving with a short section of reversed road working as the NB proper left the middle platform (2) and flew over the diverging SB to platform 3. 35 or 36 lever frame (more prob. 35) 1 with 1, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 25, 30 [36] spare.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2010 1:07:10 GMT
What sort of terminus design was planned for the Camberwell terminus? Three platforms 1 and 2/3, three sidings (scissors crossovers between the middle and outer roads) - trains from 3 could go to all sidings, 2 likewise, but from 1 you could only go to one or middle (2). Diverging junction in the SB to platforms 3 and 1, scissors crossover between 2 and 3, facing crossover between 3 and 2 on leaving with a short section of reversed road working as the NB proper left the middle platform (2) and flew over the diverging SB to platform 3. 35 or 36 lever frame (more prob. 35) 1 with 1, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 25, 30 [36] spare. Thanks, I'm just trying to draw this out. I can work out the sidings end from your description, but not so sure about the service end. So I'm right in saying that there is some form of grade separation as the SB diverging branch to 3 passes under the NB? Also, are trains able to access the NB from plat 1, or would all trains terminating in plat 1 have to reverse via sidings to plat 2 or 3? Finally, was this terminus designed to be deep level, or in a cutting/cut and cover? Thanks
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