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Post by harlesden on Jun 18, 2010 16:20:14 GMT
Standing in the rear car with the passengers, or sitting in the cab at the back in peace and solitude?
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 18, 2010 17:10:15 GMT
In the tube stocks, wasnt the controls in the rear car, and on the sub surface stocks it was in the rear cab? I remember on the 38s, 59s and 72s, the Guard being in the rear carriage operating the doors. Guards on the sub surface was a bit before my time, but I have seen footage of the guards only in the rear cab. Did they operate the doors from the last car also?
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 18, 2010 18:31:43 GMT
I think (others with greater knowledge may correct me) that guards were normally in the rear car (with the exception of a couple of batches in the 1930s - was it G stock?) and that back cab operation was a late-on thing on, for instance, 73 stock.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 18, 2010 19:02:57 GMT
I actually preferred being in the rear car with the passengers- although they were different times then! Travelling backwards in the rear cab of C or D Stock didn't quite have the same feeling!
recent times-
surface rear cab: D, C, CO, O
surface rear car: A, R, CP, P
tube rear cab: '95, '92, '86, '83, '73
tube rear car: '72, '56/'59/'62, '38,
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 19:16:29 GMT
When the Northern Line experimented with 9 car trains, the Guard took his position on the 7th car.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 18, 2010 19:20:25 GMT
Were there any circumstances in which other guards positions were used? For instance, if the position in the back car were to become defective, could the train continue with a guard at another position, or would the train be emptied and go off service to the depot?
On BR trains these days it seems to be common for the guard to operate the doors from any door position, but then their guards need to be mobile around the train selling tickets etc.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 18, 2010 22:12:26 GMT
recent times- surface rear cab: D, C, CO, O surface rear car: A, R, CP, P tube rear cab: '95, '92, '86, '83, '73 tube rear car: '72, '56/'59/'62, '38, Reading Brain Hardy's "Underground Train File" at present - very comprehensive. AIUI, The Met had the guard in the rear cab, the LER in the passenger saloon, and this tradition was maintained in early LT days; hence the difference between O and P stock. I recall reading at the time they were introduced that C, D and 1973 stock had guard's positions in the rear cab with aview to eventual OPO conversion - converting the 1972 and A stocks was a bigger job and earlier tube stock was never done (1959 stock was longer than some station tunnels on the Northern, so it couldn't be done there anyway) 1992/95/96 stocks were OPO from the start, and I'm fairly sure 83 and 86 stock were as well. |
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jun 18, 2010 22:40:12 GMT
1992/95/96 stocks were OPO from the start, and I'm fairly sure 83 and 86 stock were as well. My friend Hugh told me a story about the 1983 Stock from a guard's perspective, (to do with the lively ride while lightly loaded,comfortable when full,perhaps off-topic!) which makes me pretty certain that,initially at least,they were used with guards,though I am certain they were OPO-capable from the start. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 18, 2010 22:43:15 GMT
Center guard operation was trailed on the Q stock and the Piccadilly standard stock, but was not rated as a success! When the F stock was used on the East London Line, 4 car units were used. The F stock was made up, like the A stock of two 4 car units. The guard positions were at the trailing end of the leading cars only*, thus the guard had to work from the double equipped car, even if it was at the front.
*The F stock was formed D/M-T-T-S/M+S/M-T-T-D/M
The D/M cars only had a gaurds position so the guard could only work from there.
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Post by astock5000 on Jun 18, 2010 23:59:00 GMT
I am certain they were OPO-capable from the start. 'London Underground Rolling Stock' by Brian Hardy (the 1993 edition) says that batch II 83TS were, but the batch Is weren't, and were converted at Acton Works. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 19, 2010 0:07:04 GMT
When the Northern Line experimented with 9 car trains, the Guard took his position on the 7th car. *trigger thoughts* I shall have to have a peer through the library, as I've got the 'green peril' covering these in the '37 and '38 editions (or '38 and '39 editions). |
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jun 21, 2010 17:08:40 GMT
When I first passed out as a guard in Jan 1989, I was sent to the Elephant on the Bakerloo, In those days we had 1972 mkII stock with (i think) it was about two or three 1959,s. Anyway, the 72,s had the guards postion in the rear cab, and the 59,s in with the passengers. I very rarely had a 59 stock in my early days as a guard. One day I had one, and got myself a bit muddled up because the 59,s had a guards door open button a nd the 72,s did not, one day at Waterloo i got a bit confused, opened the guards door, closed it again and gave the bell! Very unhappy punters at Charing X!  Oh and the answer to your question is in the back cab. I used to dread stopping for ages between stations with the punters eyes buring into my back, and having to shout down that bloody loudaphone thing was soo embarrasing!! |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 28, 2010 15:02:05 GMT
The 72 mk1s had the guard in the rear car pax saloon. Got a feeling that every stock built since the 72mk2 ts has been built with the possibility of ATO conversion at some point. A stock wasn't built with even OPO conversion in mind. This surely must have been the most involved OPO conversion to be done.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 28, 2010 15:31:11 GMT
The A stock conversion was comprehensive, and involved the A stock loosing their reversability.
I think the 72mk2 stock had guards controls in the cabs and trailing end of the saloons. This was because they were expected to run on an OPO (and later ATO) Jubilee Line, but were built early to keep Metrocammell going!
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Post by harlesden on Jun 28, 2010 17:21:14 GMT
I would have thought the rear cab was better. In hot weather, you could run with the door open. I imagine guards working in with the passengers could not do this.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 28, 2010 17:43:19 GMT
I think Tubeprune once commented that the rear cab was preferable because the guards could smoke in it
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jun 28, 2010 17:44:17 GMT
I remember guards in the summer of 1976 running 1959 Stock (at least) with their door open in open sections,though this was probably against some regulation.
The guard's panel had a separate button for the guard's door,and guards usually kept this door open as the train pulled away,to make sure all was OK,closing it as the train entered a tunnel.
The guard could lower a bar which separated him from the saloon,and had his own tip-up seat,so he wasn't really working in with the passengers.And you got short shrift if you tried to enter the train using the guard's door....
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Post by ruislip on Jun 28, 2010 18:10:20 GMT
The guard could lower a bar which separated him from the saloon,and had his own tip-up seat,so he wasn't really working in with the passengers. I remember those bars. They said GUARD ONLY |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 28, 2010 18:13:03 GMT
I remember as a small child, my late nan and I used to cruise round the Underground and if the guard had shut the doors, he often used to let us into his door!
Used to like the guards.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 18:37:52 GMT
The guard could lower a bar which separated him from the saloon,and had his own tip-up seat,so he wasn't really working in with the passengers. I remember those bars. They said GUARD ONLYAnd BUSY. As they used to work hard I understand. No escape from the passengers.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 20:11:53 GMT
I remember guards in the summer of 1976 running 1959 Stock (at least) with their door open in open sections,though this was probably against some regulation. The guard's panel had a separate button for the guard's door,and guards usually kept this door open as the train pulled away,to make sure all was OK,closing it as the train entered a tunnel. The guard could lower a bar which separated him from the saloon,and had his own tip-up seat,so he wasn't really working in with the passengers.And you got short shrift if you tried to enter the train using the guard's door.... Guards were supposed to observe at least half the length of the platform as the train departed to ensure all was well. There were a few incidents where guards got distracted and met a sticky end by colliding with the headwall (this nearly happened to me once). I also remember a hot, sunny day when we'd sat on the bank for ages waiting to come out of Morden depot for the afternoon service, I'd had both guards doors open to get a bit of air and completely forgot we might go through the wash until it was far too late! I legged it to the other end of the car so I stayed dry but my gangway, bag, jacket etc. were awash! I felt very, very stupid............ |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jul 4, 2010 20:21:59 GMT
I recall when a 1959 Stock train on the Picc had a fatack..Guard kept his head out too long. There always seemed to be a few Guards that were determined to get in the car as late as possible.
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Post by aldenham on Jul 9, 2010 21:05:03 GMT
I can't remember myself, but I would have thought that the 72MkII must have guards controls in both the saloon and cab, as when it was in service on the Northern the rear cab would have still been in the tunnel at many of the stations, as it was on the 38/56/59TS
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Post by 21146 on Jul 9, 2010 23:06:54 GMT
I can't remember myself, but I would have thought that the 72MkII must have guards controls in both the saloon and cab, as when it was in service on the Northern the rear cab would have still been in the tunnel at many of the stations, as it was on the 38/56/59TS I think they had "door controls", not "guard's controls" in the cabs of MkII's. These were Victoria Line "Allen West" tiller handles and did not work. I recall using the latter design on the 67TS a few times, was it 'up' or 'down' to open the doors? |
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 28, 2010 14:55:03 GMT
I can't remember myself, but I would have thought that the 72MkII must have guards controls in both the saloon and cab, as when it was in service on the Northern the rear cab would have still been in the tunnel at many of the stations, as it was on the 38/56/59TS I think they had "door controls", not "guard's controls" in the cabs of MkII's. These were Victoria Line "Allen West" tiller handles and did not work. Yes, I can confirm this. It was 'up' to open. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 30, 2010 20:32:53 GMT
I would have thought the rear cab was better. In hot weather, you could run with the door open. I imagine guards working in with the passengers could not do this. Apart from the 1972 Mk II's, which did not have side cab doors, although I suppose they could have wedged the end door open. I remember that some drivers on the 1962 stock uses a piece of wood to do this. |
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