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Post by londonstuff on May 23, 2010 20:37:27 GMT
I saw this weekend that the line is suspended from Wood Green to Cockfosters - presumably for some sort of track maintenance there: This though is the first time I've ever heard of trains terminating at Wood Green - presumably because in disruptions, Arnos and Cockfosters are far more flexible: according to Quail 5, Wood Green has a centre reversal siding similar to Tooting Bec on the Northern Line. My question, given that I've never heard of this being used much, is how often in terms of turning back/engineering/service problems is the siding used? Do the train describers have this as a destination? What was going on between Wood Green and Cockfosters? Ta
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 21:07:57 GMT
I saw this weekend that the line is suspended from Wood Green to Cockfosters - presumably for some sort of track maintenance there: This though is the first time I've ever heard of trains terminating at Wood Green - presumably because in disruptions, Arnos and Cockfosters are far more flexible: according to Quail 5, Wood Green has a centre reversal siding similar to Tooting Bec on the Northern Line. My question, given that I've never heard of this being used much, is how often in terms of turning back/engineering/service problems is the siding used? Do the train describers have this as a destination? What was going on between Wood Green and Cockfosters? Ta Wood Green is used a lot for orignally and reformed late running trains. There is a Wood Green train description, the last place that it can be changed is at Kings Cross. But the signalling system from Wood Green east thereof, works on train numbers rather than TD, so it's not essesntial that it is changed before
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 23, 2010 21:09:51 GMT
For those of us who were enthusiasts in the 1970s, Wood Green was a normal reversing point, and was I think the terminus for Barons Court weekday 'shorts'. These ended in 1979, again from memory. There is indeed a central siding, and I cannot for the life of me been able to recollect seeing any usage of it in modern times even to reverse late-running trains. Perhaps someone can add anything? Oh, the old lightboxes used to have 'WOOD GREEN'.
As I was typing, I was beaten to a reply. I am wracking my brain to try and recall if Wood Green was on the original Hounslow West lightboxes. 'HYDE PARK CORNER' and 'KINGS CROSS' were..possibly 'WEST KENSINGTON'.
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Post by ruislip on May 23, 2010 21:11:16 GMT
Years ago Wood Green was a regular reversing point, especially before the extension to Heathrow opened.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 23, 2010 21:20:47 GMT
I can only speak from experience/memory of before the grand shake-up of the Piccadilly WTT (44? 43?) [1] Wood Green was used about 3, possibly twice per day to sort out a spot of late running: if you've got bunching going into Arnos or Cockfosters then you can gain a little back by short-tripping at Wood Green.
Can't remember OTTOMH [2] when the last booked reversers at Wood Green took place, and Wood Green is indeed available as a TD - had been so ever since that end of the Picc went onto Earls Court, and in fact Wood Green was the first ever relay-based interlocking with automatic reversing worked off the train description when it opened in 1932. I know I've got details of that stashed away somewhere and some notes on the push-buttons for the TD at Earls Court.
[1] quite a lot of work has been done on the Picc WTTs in much the same fashion as the Extended Circle, but with far less trumpeting.
[2] 5 came back in January-September 1997.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2010 21:51:36 GMT
Years ago Wood Green was a regular reversing point, especially before the extension to Heathrow opened. It was on a train making such a reversal that an IRA bomb went off in 1976. (There were two other bombs, at East Ham (H&C) and Cannon Street (BR), both mercifully also on ECS, although it is not clear whether this was intentional)
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metman
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Post by metman on May 23, 2010 22:12:23 GMT
I was just thinking that. I remember seeing a photo of the train at Wood Green.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 24, 2010 6:29:36 GMT
I remember that only too well..I missed a bomb at the Arcade in New Bond Street by a short time, having walked past to get to Green Park to go home. Some time later I was amazed to see Shaw Taylor filming for Police 5, appealing for info etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 7:19:17 GMT
It was on a train making such a reversal that an IRA bomb went off in 1976. (There were two other bombs, at East Ham (H&C) and Cannon Street (BR), both mercifully also on ECS, although it is not clear whether this was intentional) I vaguely remember the East Ham incident - wasn't that in service with the bomber on the train when it went off, and he then shot the motorman? Or was that a different incident?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 7:58:26 GMT
It was on a train making such a reversal that an IRA bomb went off in 1976. (There were two other bombs, at East Ham (H&C) and Cannon Street (BR), both mercifully also on ECS, although it is not clear whether this was intentional) I vaguely remember the East Ham incident - wasn't that in service with the bomber on the train when it went off, and he then shot the motorman? Or was that a different incident? Taken from BBC News Site for 15th March 1976 1976: Tube driver shot dead
The driver of a London Underground train has been shot dead while chasing a gunman who is believed to have detonated a bomb on his train. Julius Stephen, 34, of Hammersmith, died almost instantly, and a Post Office engineer Peter Chalk, 24, who had been working nearby and also chased the gunman, is now critically ill in hospital. Nine other people were injured as the 5lb (2.2 kilograms) bomb exploded in the first carriage of the train at 1650 GMT only minutes after it left West Ham, in east London. The gunman, who is understood to have caused the explosion on the train, was chased by police but turned the gun on himself, as he was cornered by officers.
IRA link
Armed detectives are currently guarding a man at Queen Mary's Hospital, West Ham. Police believe the bomb exploded prematurely and say it may be linked to the IRA. Bomb squad detectives sifted through the charred interior of the carriage and found several items similar to other IRA bombs which have exploded in London in the last few months. The train, travelling on an open air section of the track along the Metropolitan Line, was due to pass at rush hour through crowded stations such as Liverpool Street, King's Cross, Baker Street and Paddington on route from Barking to Hammersmith. The incident is the third apparent attack on commuters in London in recent weeks. On 13 February a 20lb (9 kg) bomb was found in a small case at Oxford Circus Underground Station and was defused and on 4 March a 10lb (4.5 kg) bomb exploded in an empty train near Cannon Street station, injuring eight people in a passing train. The gunman is described as being in his mid-thirties, with a London address. Police are warning commuters to be vigilant of packages at stations, or anyone acting suspiciously
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 10:06:50 GMT
Wood Green reversers are not booked as part of the normal timetable, it's only used for late running trains or in times of disruption further east. I remember on my first day of training I managed to reverse there twice as we were running late, that was July 06, timetable 43 I believe.
Over the weekend drivers were stepping back four trains and double manning in and out of the sidings to speed the process up. The same shutdown is due to take place in about a months time. I think this time around they may have been working on the points at Arnos Grove.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 16:01:18 GMT
Over the weekend drivers were stepping back four trains and double manning in and out of the sidings to speed the process up. The same shutdown is due to take place in about a months time. I think this time around they may have been working on the points at Arnos Grove. Saturday 19th and Sunday 20th June. More closures starting on the weekend of 9th and 10th October. 1What are they doing, in both this series of possessions, and the sereis starting on the weekend of 9th/10th October 2? 1 9th/10th October: Kings Cross to Cockfosters 2 16th/17th October: Arnos Grove to Cockfosters are the only two other closures shown in the six month pdf at present.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 18:43:35 GMT
Over the weekend drivers were stepping back four trains and double manning in and out of the sidings to speed the process up. The same shutdown is due to take place in about a months time. I think this time around they may have been working on the points at Arnos Grove. Saturday 19th and Sunday 20th June. More closures starting on the weekend of 9th and 10th October. 1What are they doing, in both this series of possessions, and the sereis starting on the weekend of 9th/10th October 2? 1 9th/10th October: Kings Cross to Cockfosters 2 16th/17th October: Arnos Grove to Cockfosters are the only two other closures shown in the six month pdf at present. As the line is not quite at the stage for signalling replacement, at a guess i would say it will be new track being laid, they are quite a few places where we need it in that area.
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Post by North End on May 24, 2010 20:08:55 GMT
Saturday 19th and Sunday 20th June. More closures starting on the weekend of 9th and 10th October. 1What are they doing, in both this series of possessions, and the sereis starting on the weekend of 9th/10th October 2? 1 9th/10th October: Kings Cross to Cockfosters 2 16th/17th October: Arnos Grove to Cockfosters are the only two other closures shown in the six month pdf at present. As the line is not quite at the stage for signalling replacement, at a guess i would say it will be new track being laid, they are quite a few places where we need it in that area. A bit more than "not quite" at that stage - rumours are circulating from reliable sources that the Piccadilly Line upgrade has been deferred for at least 8 years.
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Post by ruislip on May 25, 2010 1:26:11 GMT
For those of us who were enthusiasts in the 1970s, Wood Green was a normal reversing point, and was I think the terminus for Barons Court weekday 'shorts'. These ended in 1979, again from memory. From a November 1970 WTT, Saturday services northbound alternated between Wood Green, Arnos, and Cockfosters. Wasn't there a period before then when the pattern was something like Cockfosters, Wood Green, Cockfosters, Arnos?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 25, 2010 9:34:35 GMT
Yes - and that was fairly fluid too.
I have an amended copy of District and Picc WTT 91 (30/1/67) which has TTN 5/67 pasted in and the title of the TTN is Revision to the Piccadilly Line Monday to Friday Evening Peak service to eliminate reversing at Wood Green between 17.55 and 19.00 and increase the service to Cockfosters between 18.00 and 19.40.
The growth and evolution of the Piccadilly WTT deserves a book all to itself - especially the short services and uncoupling. For instance you would have in 1959 the following service intervals (min): Rayners Lane/Hounslow 10, Acton Town - Barons Court 5, Barons Court – Green Park 2½-5, Green Park – Wood Green 2½, Arnos Grove 2½-5, Cockfosters 10. These are the off-peak service intervals for the last WTT to include uncoupling. Due to the comparatively long runs on the Piccadilly, the off-peak tends to shape the peak services a lot more than other lines - when full length trains were run the service intervals changed with the withdrawal of Green Park reversers in the lunch slack and Acton Town reversers in the evening.
Moving into more recent times, the off-peak Barons Court reversers were extended to Acton Town when the extension to Hatton Cross opened, and at the same time Wood Green turnbacks stopped for afternoon tea. With the extension to Heathrow the Acton Town reversers (which were formerly the Barons Court reversers) went to Heathrow.
In and of itself the evolution of the Picc service is fascinating, becoming the 'little brother' of the District with the District calling the tune on the Hounslow branch and now there is the situation where the Met. calls the tune on the Uxbridge branch.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 9:40:51 GMT
Indeed the Picc WTT story is a complicated one.
In my notes I have (WTT33 - 28/9/97) that (the last of the) scheduled Wood Green reversers were eliminated from this timetable.
Whilst you can save a little by reversing at Wood Green for late running, the current restrictions (i.e. checking train to see it is emptied of punters) and that the T/Op is not scheduled to be relieved at Arnos Grove both have to be considered.
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Post by ruislip on May 25, 2010 18:52:19 GMT
Due to the comparatively long runs on the Piccadilly, the off-peak tends to shape the peak services a lot more than other lines - when full length trains were run the service intervals changed with the withdrawal of Green Park reversers in the lunch slack and Acton Town reversers in the evening. Did the Green Park reversers come from the west or east? I am guessing they came from the east--using the Down Street siding.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 19:43:46 GMT
"Green Park" reversers came from the 'east', detraining there and then running empty to and from Down Street siding.
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Post by Oracle on May 25, 2010 20:52:47 GMT
I think, and wish to stand being corrected, that GREEN PARK was on the old lightbox displays east of GP. As I said, HYDE PARK CORNER was on some 'boxes..not sure about the old style Northfields/Acton/Hammersmith destination indicators though.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 21:14:01 GMT
I think you must be right, because there were regular Green Park reversers right up to the late-1950s - date of discontinuing them eludes me at the moment. I too, however, stand to be corrected about the displays on the light box indicators.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 26, 2010 8:06:09 GMT
Ah - now this should be relatively straightforward to find, as Green Park reversers were shewn by a column note, rather than being on the galley. <wanders into library> Right, first random port of call is D&P WTT 79 (1/12/58 - opening of new depot at Upminster and commissioning of Barking Sidings). Green Park reversers are there in the M-F off peak, starting at 10.57½am from Green Park, 10.54am ex-siding) forming the 11.23½am arrival into Arnos and continue until 3.37½pm (3.34pm ex siding) - forming the 4.10½pm arrival into Cockfosters. Unfortunately I've not got a copy to hand of D&P WTT 81, but my notes have the galley changing with Barons Court being added to the galley. D&P WTT 82 (21/3/60) has no Green Park reversers in the lunch slack *but* they are there Saturday evenings (8.9pm ex Green Park, 8.7pm ex siding) forming the 8.30½pm arrival into Wood Green up to the 10.27pm arrival into Cockfosters, which was formed by the 9.54pm ex Green Park (9.52 ex siding). These Saturday evening Green Park reversers were also in D&P WTT 80 (2/3/59) but starting with the 6.45½pm arrival into Wood Green, formed of the 6.24pm ex Green Park (6.22pm, ex-siding); in fact as this thread is about Wood Green reversers, here's a picture to keep you going: if the text is a little small try 'ctrl +' as that winds up the looking glass in most browsers. More later, I've got to go and ring some bells for a service.
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Post by tubeprune on May 26, 2010 9:30:17 GMT
Interesing footnote to this is that the Circles are still 5-car sets but H&C are 6-car. I wonder which was the first WTT where they were shown as 6-car. The conversion of Q38s started in November 1958 with the first CO/CP unit getting a trailer in June 1959.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 26, 2010 10:51:03 GMT
You would complicate things! However, as I've got that era of WTTs out of the library, I'll try and answer that question too. Circles to 6-car first appear in the District and Piccadilly galley of WTT 82 (21/3/60) unless the change happened during the currency of D&P WTT 81 (14/9/59 - 20/3/60, inclusive) - this ties in with Met. No. 1 WTTs 174 (SuO, changing C'cle service to 6min, rather than 5min with H&C at 12 vice 10 - longer intervals, perhaps because of longer trains) but No 1 WTT 175 (15/6/59) was all still 5 car, even on Sunday apart from the two District circles, discounting the longer train/longer interval theory: so the clincher is Met No 1 WTT 179 (14/9/59) which I've not got. So from what I can find every circle was 6 car in/from WTT 181 (4/1/60) but could have been all 6 car from the previous September. Anyway, back to Green Park reversers........ It would appear that the evening reversers finished with the introduction of D&P WTT 83 (10/10/60), but and relevant to the thread title there were Barons Court - Wood Green shorts every 10 mins from 1048½am until 3.28½pm.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 17:00:03 GMT
Firstly, off-topic - Circle Line. Trains were increased from 5- to 6-car when 17 Q38 trailers were converted to COP trailers from 9/6/59 to 6/1/60 (dates ex-Acton Works after conversion). It was thus a gradual introduction onto the Circle Line rather than one "big bang" of 6-car trains.
Back to Green Park:
Down Street siding was commissioned 28/5/33.
WTT No.127 (23/10/33) had a small number of Green Park (Down Street siding) reversers in the peaks, as did Hammersmith.
WTT No.3 (3/12/34) saw the peak hour Hammersmith reversers eliminated.
WTT No.11 (3/5/37) notes a reduction in number of peak hour Green Park reversers.
WTT No.17 (28/11/38) - Two Down Street trains MF AM peak, one of which stables in the siding (don't forget there was space in the siding for two trains). The evening peak had one train only, which started from Down Street siding. On Saturdays there were three morning peak reversers, plus one stabler, which started up again for the midday peak.
WTT No.20 (17/7/39) one Down Street stabler MF AM peak and one start up PM peak. Saturdays one Down Street stabler Sat AM peak and one start up midday peak, plus two AM peak reversers.
Not sure when this pair were withdrawn - may have got tied up with early wartime WTTs?
Fast forward to the 1950s:
WTT No.76 (1/4/57) - No Picc line uncoupling on Saturdays.
WTT No.78 (9/6/58) - Barons Court off-peak reversers cut back to Green Park. Green Park reversers introduced MF and SO.
WTT No.80 (2/3/59) - Still Green Park reversers.
WTT No.82 (21/3/60) - First WTT to incorporate no uncoupling on Picc (MF ended 30/11/59 and Sun 24/1/60 - remember that Saturday uncoupling ended in 1957 - see above) with full length trains and no Green Park reversers MF. There are still Green Park reversers on Saturday evenings with full-length trains.
WTT No.83 (14/10/60) - Elimination of Saturday evening Green Park reversers by maintaining the after-midday-peak service (7½/3½-4 pattern) through the evening.
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Post by ruislip on May 26, 2010 20:51:49 GMT
WTT No.82 (21/3/60) - First WTT to incorporate no uncoupling on Picc (MF ended 30/11/59 and Sun 24/1/60 - remember that Saturday uncoupling ended in 1957 - see above) with full length trains and no Green Park reversers MF. There are still Green Park reversers on Saturday evenings with full-length trains. Prior to the start of this WTT, would there have been uncoupling of 1959 stock on Sundays? IIRC, the 1959 stock entered passenger service sometime in December of '59.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 22:05:01 GMT
No short 1959s were operated MF/SO as the first went into service on 14/12/59. I rode on it on Saturday 19/12/59 from Ealing Copmmon to Alperton and was surprised to see 2 headlights instead of 5! This was after uncoupling was cancelled for Christmas (and permanently MF/SO). They could just have uncoupled on Sundays but by 24/1/60 (abandonment of Sunday uncoupling) there were only 2x7-car 1959s in service. Whether they did, I cannot say.
However, the 1956s did uncouple, and I have a photo of a 3-car in the middle road at Cockfosters. On the basis that the outer DM ends only had mechanical couplers until some years later, great care had to be taken that these didn't end up facing each other (or a mechanical coupler facing an auto coupler) at coupling up time.
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Post by Phil on May 28, 2010 6:58:55 GMT
However, the 1956s did uncouple, and I have a photo of a 3-car in the middle road at Cockfosters. On the basis that the outer DM ends only had mechanical couplers until some years later, great care had to be taken that these didn't end up facing each other (or a mechanical coupler facing an auto coupler) at coupling up time. But since at that time there was no place on the Picc for trains to get turned in service it shouldn't have been a problem, should it??
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2010 17:03:55 GMT
"Turning" is not the problem. I'll try and explain. Let's say that a 7-car 1956 uncouples at Cockfosters.
The west end unit has a mechanical coupler at the west end and an auto coupler at the east end. Off it trots to, say, Hounslow West.
Let's assume (for simplicity) that the second (east end) unit follows the first to Hounslow West, which will have an auto coupler at the west end and a mechanical coupler at the east end. So far, so good.
But then lets assume that the trains then return to Cockfosters for coupling up. The first unit then heads eastbound which has a mechanical coupler at the west end and an auto coupler at the east end. It arrives at Cockfosters with the auto coupler looking at the buffers and the mechanical coupler facing west, awaiting the arriving unit.
The second unit then leaves Hounslow, which has an auto coupler at the west end and a mechanical coupler at the east end. That arrives at Cockfosters into the same platform as the first unit and there you have two mechanical couplers facing each other - embarrassment.
The only way out of it would be for both units to be 'shunted' via the sidings or depot, to recouple with the auto couplers in the middle.
In reality, it was a little more complicated. The following is from my notes with the arrangements in WTT No.80 on Mondays to Fridays from 2 March 1959.
In the WTT, the Standard Stock was shown as '7' or '4', the 1938s as 'U7' or 'U4' (U denoting a train with an UNDM), and the 1956 Stock as 'N7', 'N4' and 'N3' (N denoting 'new' train I suppose).
MIDDAY OFF-PEAK MF
Train 197 Uncouples 09.16 Northfields westbound. Four cars (N4) remain in service, three cars (N3) to Northfields depot and renumbers to train 297. Train 297 (N3) starts 10.11 ex-Northfields depot (west) and runs empty to Hounslow West, starting in service from 10.27.
Train 198 Arrives in Cockfosters depot and uncouples. Train 198 (N4) re-enters service from 10.04 Oakwood westbound and train 298 (N3) re-enters service from 10.44 Oakwood westbound.
Train 199 Stables in Northfields depot after the morning peak – 10.21 empty ex-Hounslow West to Northfields depot.
Train 297 Arrive Cockfosters 15.28 as three cars.
Train 197 Arrive Cockfosters 15.33 as four cars and couple to train 297. Seven-car train 197 departs Cockfosters (N7) at 15.44.
Train 298 Departs Hounslow West at 16.10 in service as N3 to Northfields.
Train 198 Departs Hounslow West at 16.12 in service as N4 to Northfields, coupling to train 298 at 16.27, forming train 198 as N7.
Train 199 Starts ex-Northfields depot as N7 at 16.16.
EVENING MF
Train 198 Uncouples at Cockfosters. Train 198 (N4) forms 20.08 westbound. Train 298 (N3) forms 20.11 westbound. Both units stable separately as short trains back at Cockfosters at 22.40 and 22.44 respectively.
With no service disruptions, then at re-coupling time, the two auto couplers should be facing each other!
Hope that all makes sense.
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Post by DWS on May 28, 2010 18:12:51 GMT
The 3 car unit off the Aldwych branch used Wood Green to reverse when it left the branch after the evening peak on its return to its home depot.
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