vato
Zone 6D - Special Fares Apply
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Post by vato on Dec 21, 2009 23:53:06 GMT
Having had "fun" getting home tonight, I thought I'd avoid the usual whinge and say that thanks are in order for a lot of hard work in difficult conditions. I'd seen service was suspended Aldgate<->HOTH due to train problem at Wembley Park, so I headed to Marylebone and got to Chalfont reasonably quickly. It took a long while for the shuttle to run, but got there in the end. Quite a queue of trains heading northbound behind one that obviously had a real nasty time getting from Ricky. Most trains looked like they had extra arc welders installed by the shoes - looked like fireworks...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 0:25:32 GMT
Having had "fun" getting home tonight, I thought I'd avoid the usual whinge and say that thanks are in order for a lot of hard work in difficult conditions. I'd seen service was suspended Aldgate<->HOTH due to train problem at Wembley Park, so I headed to Marylebone and got to Chalfont reasonably quickly. It took a long while for the shuttle to run, but got there in the end. Quite a queue of trains heading northbound behind one that obviously had a real nasty time getting from Ricky. Most trains looked like they had extra arc welders installed by the shoes - looked like fireworks... It's been quite an awful night for Met & Chiltern passengers and staff. When i got in at just after 14.30, we had a double signal failure on the South approaching Pinner, all of this with a heavy rainshower going on. Shortly afterwards we then had another two failing approaching Northwood Hills SB, so 4 signals failing in all. Trains were running through ok until one T/Op (and i'll go no further but to say he didn't understand what carrying the procedure out to pass a signal at danger meant) took 35 minutes to get from Northwood to North Harrow! Then we had a train at Wembley NB for which we had a report of smoke coming from the rear of it. T/Op said he had brake problems so he detrained to reverse to Neasden Depot. Unfortunately he then stalled over the points totally shutting the Northbound Met for almost 45 minutes. A Southbound on the Amersham road was reversed via P2 at Harrow back to Amersham. This promptly stalled on the NB by Pinner as a blizzard had hit and then froze on the current rails. eventually moved and about 45 minutes later that got to Ricky. It then stalled on the SB local coming back South, just short of Moor Park. Suspended to Watford for the next 2 hours. Chesham shuttle got stuck with problems then the first NB Met to Amersham got stalled. Took an hour and a half to get there. Once that got in the platform, the points wouldn't throw behind it, so three Down Chilterns stuck for an hour. I could go on and on but I think you can see how this went from here on in. Credit to 99.9% of the T/Ops, signallers ,station staff who just got on with it, particularly some of the T/Ops who had been on trains for 6 hours plus. Just a pity we didn't have the equipment to match the effort put in by everyone! I'm now consuming vast amounts of San Miguel and bouncing around my rubber room! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 0:40:19 GMT
What equipment would help? I know a lot of us are winging but what exactly is it that makes other metros able to run in the snow/cold conditions? I thought we already had heated points and the deicing trains. What else does TFL need? (not asked in a challenging way, just inquisitive)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 0:43:53 GMT
What equipment would help? I know a lot of us are winging but what exactly is it that makes other metros able to run in the snow/cold conditions? I thought we already had heated points and the deicing trains. What else does TFL need? (not asked in a challenging way, just inquisitive) Points heaters that actually work would be a good start as various seemed to have failed. Also the ability for a train to brush and de ice the current rails in advance of the pickup shoes so that even if the train is creeping along, it may held sustain a power supply to the train. |
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Post by 21146 on Dec 22, 2009 0:55:13 GMT
Well, nearly a full house!
Bakerloo Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring due to a fire alert at Queens Park.
Central Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring due to a person ill on a train earlier at Stratford.
Circle Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring due to the lack of available trains.
District Severe delays
Severe delays are occurring between Earls Court and Wimbledon due to a signal failure at Parsons Green.
H'smith & City Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring due to the lack of available trains.
Jubilee Severe delays
Severe delays are occurring due to an earlier customer incident at Finchley Road.
Metropolitan Severe delays
Severe delays are occurring due to adverse weather conditions.
Northern Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring due to adverse weather conditions.
Piccadilly Minor delays
Minor delays are occurring eastbound due to adverse weather conditions.
Victoria Good service
Waterloo & City Planned closure
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 1:13:21 GMT
What equipment would help? I know a lot of us are winging but what exactly is it that makes other metros able to run in the snow/cold conditions? I thought we already had heated points and the deicing trains. What else does TFL need? (not asked in a challenging way, just inquisitive) Points heaters that actually work would be a good start as various seemed to have failed. Also the ability for a train to brush and de ice the current rails in advance of the pickup shoes so that even if the train is creeping along, it may held sustain a power supply to the train. Is it age or just unfit for purpose point heaters that are currently installed? Also, adding a brush seems to be a fairly simple, cheap and no brainer solution. Why hasn't this been implemented at least? |
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Post by deadmans on Dec 23, 2009 14:35:44 GMT
Classic stuff from the hundreds of passengers, who refused to de-train from a fast Amersham service, at Harrow and demanded it was made all stations on the slow lines!!
They got their wish, that also happened in February, mass passenger action.
Could be a new trend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 16:16:52 GMT
Classic stuff from the hundreds of passengers, who refused to de-train from a fast Amersham service, at Harrow and demanded it was made all stations on the slow lines!! They got their wish, that also happened in February, mass passenger action. Could be a new trend. ISTR something similar a few years ago on the Northern line - passengers at Finchley Central blocking the doors of a MHE train to get it diverted to cover a gap in the High Barnet service! |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 6, 2010 0:21:29 GMT
It's all gone down the pan again! It's nice to get the same train home that you got to go out, except at Harrow, the Watford train was diverted to Uxbridge (nice guy driving, had a quick chat with him!) and the service then suspended to Watford. Thankfully the H11 got me home-just! 3 trains got stuck between Harrow and Watford - what happened and where?  |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 6, 2010 0:23:29 GMT
It's all gone down the pan again! It's nice to get the same train home that you got to go out, except at Harrow, the Watford train was diverted to Uxbridge (nice guy driving, had a quick chat with him!) and the service then suspended to Watford. Thankfully the H11 got me home-just! 3 trains got stuck between Harrow and Watford - what happened and where? Ice on the current rails most probably. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 6, 2010 0:38:31 GMT
No doubt, although 75% of the trains I saw were de-icers!
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Post by citysig on Jan 6, 2010 10:22:31 GMT
No doubt, although 75% of the trains I saw were de-icers! You didn't see many trains then ;D Seriously though, de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, and worked throughout the night. The trouble is, the laying of fluid and the scrubbing of current rails will only do so much. You can lay fluid, but it's not a magic snow repellent, and snow will eventually settle back on the rails and freeze. Couple this with the current flurries being composed of that "wrong type" of snow - the very fluffy, powdery stuff which gets everywhere. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 6, 2010 11:01:34 GMT
Interesting it was only from 21:00, I was about at 6 - 6:30 ish when a call was received to flip the D boards to 'on'. By that point though every de-icing unit I saw pass already had them on anyway...
Presumably drivers are allowed to use it at their discretion if they feel a situation might warrant it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 13:09:33 GMT
Interesting it was only from 21:00, I was about at 6 - 6:30 ish when a call was received to flip the D boards to 'on'. By that point though every de-icing unit I saw pass already had them on anyway... Presumably drivers are allowed to use it at their discretion if they feel a situation might warrant it? Eh, no. Unfortunately my colleague must have been slumped unconscious in the corner at the time (either that or taking an excessive amount of time to cook his large dinner) as he appears to have missed the change of plan. The initial decision was to de-ice from 21.00, but as we were getting reports of the odd snow flake starting to fall on the North end of the line, T/Ops were asked to switch the equipment on and stations asked to change the signage to D ON from about 18.30-19.00. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 6, 2010 13:21:59 GMT
Yes, my train 5010+5104 at 8.30 was de-icing and most of the trains I passed en route to Harrow (including the fast lines) were de-icers. It was the wrong type of snow, very fluffy. I'm working for home this afternoon!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 15:19:19 GMT
No doubt, although 75% of the trains I saw were de-icers! You didn't see many trains then ;D Seriously though, de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, and worked throughout the night. The trouble is, the laying of fluid and the scrubbing of current rails will only do so much. You can lay fluid, but it's not a magic snow repellent, and snow will eventually settle back on the rails and freeze. Couple this with the current flurries being composed of that "wrong type" of snow - the very fluffy, powdery stuff which gets everywhere. I might be a bit behind the times (it's several years since I last took a train that way), but I thought the juice rails between Moor Park and Harrow-on-the-Hill were heated during freezing spells. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 16:31:55 GMT
You didn't see many trains then ;D Seriously though, de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, and worked throughout the night. The trouble is, the laying of fluid and the scrubbing of current rails will only do so much. You can lay fluid, but it's not a magic snow repellent, and snow will eventually settle back on the rails and freeze. Couple this with the current flurries being composed of that "wrong type" of snow - the very fluffy, powdery stuff which gets everywhere. I might be a bit behind the times (it's several years since I last took a train that way), but I thought the juice rails between Moor Park and Harrow-on-the-Hill were heated during freezing spells. I'm afraid not. We're lucky if the points heaters work never mind come up with a system for heating the current rails! If only! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 16:59:45 GMT
We're lucky if the points heaters work never mind come up with a system for heating the current rails! If only! I also read about this some years ago, that it was possible on the open sections to short-circuit the positive and negative rails to heat them in icy weather. It does seem like it would be a huge current draw to be effective. Urban legend ? Old system no longer used ? I also recall mention of de-icing fluid baths placed at intervals along the live rails, which when switched on allowed de-icing fluid to be carried by the collector shoes down the rails. What has happened to these ? |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jan 6, 2010 18:39:43 GMT
On the main line in this area, loads of cancellations due to frozen points.
Meantime, I did often wonder myself how the two rails don't short out when snow covered.......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 18:52:51 GMT
The point heaters on the ECML all seemed to work perfectly. Even on the little used points/ catch points around Finsbury Park.
I thought the Met did a good job this morning, all the problems and the show kept going. Obviously a few delays but I thought a good job was done by all.
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Post by chorleywood on Jan 6, 2010 19:25:07 GMT
We're lucky if the points heaters work never mind come up with a system for heating the current rails! If only! I also read about this some years ago, that it was possible on the open sections to short-circuit the positive and negative rails to heat them in icy weather. It does seem like it would be a huge current draw to be effective. Urban legend ? Old system no longer used ? Certainly there were a couple of current rail heating switches shown in the Traffic Controllers Diagrams until very recently. I recall that switches were shown on the Met at Amersham and Croxleyhall junction, and possibly on the District line somewhere. If you look at the revision history of TS36308, rev 12 dated Jan 2007 states "Removal of redundant Current Rail Heating", but I suspect that the switches had been redundant for a good while before they were finally removed from the drawings as I've never heard of them being used. I've done some calcs to try to determine how effective these would be, based on the typical power output of a substation, the specific heat capacity of a piece of steel rail and so on, and came to the conclusion that even if the switches were positioned so that the loop resistance was sufficient to prevent the substation breakers from tripping as soon as current was recharged (wouldn't this mean that the protection was ineffective for the faults it was meant to be protecting us from?) the heating effect would be surprisingly low. Can anyone remember these being used and say otherwise? There was another method tried for conductor rail heating - Stanmore sidings had strips similar to point heater strips fitted to the sides of the conductor rails. When I can across this system in 1996, the strips were still there but the control gear and wiring were gone - I don't even know if they operated off the traction supply or a mains supply. I think the strips were subsequently removed to reduce the risk of traction earths. The East London Line used to have these Williams de-icing boxes until the works prior to line recommissioning in 1998, when they were removed and equipment to fill A-stock de-icing tanks was fitted at New Cross Depot instead. I think I was told that these were the last on the network, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's still one lurking somewhere! |
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Post by citysig on Jan 6, 2010 21:47:01 GMT
..de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, Eh, no. Unfortunately my colleague must have been slumped unconscious in the corner at the time (either that or taking an excessive amount of time to cook his large dinner) as he appears to have missed the change of plan.  ;D Somewhere in my mind whilst typing, the actual time we started de-icing got confused with the original plan (probably even the plan from the previous evening.) I know it had started snowing, and I also remember (as I was sorting out the de-icer paths) that the plan was changed in haste. My dinner was not that big at all - being as I am on a New Year diet - due to end, probably as a result of reduced willpower, in early February as it normally does. But I don't know, you make one slip, and get attacked for it ;D It's not like I was in an important position as the snow began to fall ;D In any case, learned colleague, if you remember I was trying to ensure the Chiltern service wasn't suspended due to Cab-Secure radio failure! ;D |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 22:03:12 GMT
..de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, Eh, no. Unfortunately my colleague must have been slumped unconscious in the corner at the time (either that or taking an excessive amount of time to cook his large dinner) as he appears to have missed the change of plan. In any case, learned colleague, if you remember I was trying to ensure the Chiltern service wasn't suspended due to Cab-Secure radio failure! ;D Indeed, that was also a first for me with their radio system failing. I don't think they thought we would threaten their service with suspension, until you explained the reasons why their trains cannot run on our system without comms. A most embarrassing moment for them!  |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 6, 2010 22:54:01 GMT
I also read about this some years ago, that it was possible on the open sections to short-circuit the positive and negative rails to heat them in icy weather. It does seem like it would be a huge current draw to be effective. Urban legend ? Old system no longer used ? Certainly there were a couple of current rail heating switches shown in the Traffic Controllers Diagrams until very recently. I recall that switches were shown on the Met at Amersham and Croxleyhall junction The switch hut/cupboard for the heating is still there - about 1/4 mile south of Watford South Junction. The Stockholm tube uses a similar system - though I think they use the traction current through a heating strip. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 6, 2010 23:21:53 GMT
Meantime, I did often wonder myself how the two rails don't short out when snow covered....... Water is not a particularly good conductor of electricity, otherwise you'd get short circuits every time it rains. Ice is a very poor conductor, and snow is basically fluffy ice. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 23:43:13 GMT
..de-icers were operational from 2100hrs last night, In any case, learned colleague, if you remember I was trying to ensure the Chiltern service wasn't suspended due to Cab-Secure radio failure! ;D That was a great work around although i was mistyfied at how you were able obtain the 'data' that you did, i thought we'd have to have someone at Harrow platform, no doubt it was some witchcraft! ;D |
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Post by 21146 on Jan 7, 2010 0:30:55 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2010 5:31:12 GMT
In any case, learned colleague, if you remember I was trying to ensure the Chiltern service wasn't suspended due to Cab-Secure radio failure! ;D That was a great work around although i was mistyfied at how you were able obtain the 'data' that you did, i thought we'd have to have someone at Harrow platform, no doubt it was some witchcraft! ;D My esteemed colleague is often to be seen wearing a black pointy hat and when he's in the kitchen, a large pot resembling a cauldron is usually bubbling away on the stove! ;D |
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Post by citysig on Jan 7, 2010 9:24:41 GMT
My esteemed colleague is often to be seen wearing a black pointy hat and when he's in the kitchen, a large pot resembling a cauldron is usually bubbling away on the stove! ;D Don't go telling everyone, you'll spoil the magic ;D Chiltern Control were the ones providing us with the information, and as any train that could not be contacted in this way had to be cancelled on our railway, they were very very keen to help ;D |
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Post by knap on Jan 7, 2010 12:26:43 GMT
Just want to say thanks to all the staff who got my wife and me home to Amersham last night. She came down from Leeds arrivnjg Kings Cross at 9:15, so I was a bit worried about getting home with threats of snow and ice and reports that trains south of the river were stopping early, but the Met was fine, a great effort
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