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Post by uzairjubilee on Oct 30, 2009 9:49:45 GMT
On a website I am looking at for historical maps, on the 1941 London Underground map, it says "and the passenger train service between Earl's Court and Willesden Junction stations is suspended." I don't really get this. Was this a service operated by BR? I'm asking because Earl's Court was served by the District line and Willesden Junction was served by the Bakerloo line. So what does it actually mean?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 30, 2009 10:10:35 GMT
Er, BR didn't come into being until 1948. ;D
However, there was an LMS service off Earls Court usually taking 15 minutes, running approximately half-hourly.
There were also several paths for Bakerloo Ety stock - one example from a 1939 District and Piccadilly WTT is 2.11pm off Acton Works, 2.18pm Turnham Green, 2.22½pm District Line platforms at Acton Town, 2.25½pm West Ken and arriving in Earls Court at 2.27pm - reversing there and leaving at 2.32pm with the column note To Willesden for Bakerloo Line and header Empty Bakerloo Stock. Runs only when required - the eastbound had a galley footer note, headed by a pilcrow: ¶ To run via No 1 siding to Fast Line thence via Turnham Green siding to Local Line.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Oct 30, 2009 18:31:47 GMT
To add further info to Uzair's original question, the routeing for the Earls Court-Willesden Junction service would have been via Kensington Olympia and the West London Line To Willseden Junction. I can't remember whether the whole section was electirifed, but the WLL certainly was as far as the junction where the H&C crosses over, remembering there was a connection there with the H&C which the Luftwaffe detsroyed in about 1941.
This connection was severed and never replaced. ISTR this formed part of the "middle circle" originally operated by the London & North Western Railway, later the LMS.
You can still see where the connection left the H&C just west of Latimer Road station. The rest of the formation is now a road and that hideous new shopping centre.
Remember too the other lost connections from the WLL, the line from just north of Olympia via Shepherds Bush (through the bus garage) to Hammersmith, then via what is now the District to Richmond; hence the bump in the road just south of Shepherds Bush Green on Shepherds Bush Road! That line closed in the early 1920's. The other connection which has had a separate thread here was the connection just by Westway to the Central Line and Ruislip.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 22:10:02 GMT
Just a little to add on the LNWR electric service between Willesden Junction and Earl's Court, when the electric service began in 1914, its rolling stock wasn't ready and a handful of District Railway B Stock cars were loaned to the LNWR to operate it until their own stock was commissioned. It only lasted for a short while but there at least two photos of B Stock trains at Willesden High Level that I have seen. I believe they were shedded at the then Picc depot at Lillie Bridge and changed over to/from Ealing Common as necessary.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Nov 1, 2009 22:22:56 GMT
Ha, I wasn't sure if that service was electric. It would have been fun if it were steam operated in the 1930's!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 23:11:41 GMT
Just a little to add on the LNWR electric service between Willesden Junction and Earl's Court, when the electric service began in 1914, its rolling stock wasn't ready and a handful of District Railway B Stock cars were loaned to the LNWR to operate it until their own stock was commissioned. It only lasted for a short while but there at least two photos of B Stock trains at Willesden High Level that I have seen. I believe they were shedded at the then Picc depot at Lillie Bridge and changed over to/from Ealing Common as necessary. The LNWR had ordered the electrical equipment from Siemens in Germany for their fleet and the outbreak of the first war caused the contract to be cancelled. The four sets of equipment that had been delivered were used in the first four sets and the remainder had Swiss Oerlikon equipment, hence their lifelong nickname. Until the first four sets entered traffic, as mentioned above, the Disrict loaned the stock but also required a steam set to help out. The LNWR equipped the line from Willesden Jn (HL) to Kensington Addison Rd (Olympia) and Earls Court Jn and the District from Earls Court Jn to West Kensington East Jn. The service was withdrawn after heavy bombing and the conductor rails were left and were still there untill the the late 1950's at least.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Nov 2, 2009 9:28:41 GMT
So, where would the steam set have run-round at EC? Presumably on the e/b, then cross over to the w/b to work back.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 11:37:43 GMT
The LMS electric service between Willesden Junction and Earls Court left from the High Level platforms at Willesden, no connection with the Bakerloo Line. It never carried a lot of passengers so was not a priority to repair when it received war damage. The trains were part of the old "DC Lines" electric fleet, normally the four pioneer three-car sets mentioned above, which also operated another long-lost shuttle, also from Willesden Junction to Acton Central and then Kew Bridge.
Because Olympia was cut off as a result, this was what caused the District to start, after the war, the current service from Olympia to Earls Court (initially just for exhibitions, then more recently full time), which is extended to High Street Ken as the first convenient turnaround. It is not apparent why the LMS electric service could turn round at Earls Court, but not the replacing District service.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 2, 2009 12:07:36 GMT
Because Olympia was cut off as a result, this was what caused the District to start, after the war, the current service from Olympia to Earls Court (initially just for exhibitions, then more recently full time), which is extended to High Street Ken as the first convenient turnaround. It is not apparent why the LMS electric service could turn round at Earls Court, but not the replacing District service. Actually it was for a Circus - "Bertram W. Mills' Circus and Fun Fair at the Olympia" 20/12/46 - 1/2/47: the details are in District TTN 80/46 which is in my library. The service was initially run with two 6-car trains, but there is a pencil correction to 4-car train w.e.f. 15/1/47. Looking at various locking tables for both sides of Earls Court, the only practical way to reverse the service was by a shunt and a reverse into the 'yard' at the east end of the station - unless there is a gap in my information at this time there was no wrong road starter in either EA or WA boxes (either side of EC). I suspect it was so much of a faff to reverse the service was diverted elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 12:49:52 GMT
My hunch would be that the LMS only had running powers as far as Earls Court, so the Underground had to put up with it reversing right in the middle of things. When the Underground started their own service after the war they were masters of their own destiny, and so could send the service to where they liked, to turn it out of the way.
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Nov 2, 2009 13:44:20 GMT
The war damage which caused this service to be curtailed.......was this the same incident which caused the Latimer-rd.-Uxbridge-rd. section (and hence the Middle Circle) service to be abandoned? Presumably the actual damage was cleared up quickly to keep the WLL open,but the opportunity was taken to abandon marginal and little-used services?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 13:57:25 GMT
Give that the West London Line was be a key route in wartime and the actual route was unlikely to stay out of service for long, I wonder if the war damage was actually to some aspect of the electrical supply system, like a substation. This would only be used by these local passenger services, and might have been difficult to replace, while the route would continue to be used for freight trains.
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Post by johnb2 on Nov 2, 2009 14:05:06 GMT
From a couple of immediately post-war photos that I have seen the stations were pretty well wrecked. Probably with the low usage it just wasn't worth repairing them either during the war or after with the austerity then in force.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Nov 2, 2009 18:09:25 GMT
Don't forget the LMS had running powers to High Street for the coal trains (see separate thread).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 22:17:42 GMT
The trains were part of the old "DC Lines" electric fleet, normally the four pioneer three-car sets mentioned above, which also operated another long-lost shuttle, also from Willesden Junction to Acton Central and then Kew Bridge. The four Siemens sets were put into store after the 1940 service reductions, in the Carriage Shed at Mitre Bridge. They remained there until the 1950's when the were converted to 6½kV AC overhead operation for the converted Lancaster to Morecambe & Heysham pilot scheme for AC overhead traction. It is not apparent why the LMS electric service could turn round at Earls Court, but not the replacing District service. The layout at Earls Court was better suited to reversing the LMS service as the current eastbound was then a siding specifically for the purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 9:54:38 GMT
Having a quick look in the 1939 public timetable (a bit of an oxymoron there, it never ends up being a "quick" look !) and the service is roughly every 20-30 minutes, needs two trains with a third in the peak, and most of the round trip layover time appears to be taken at Earls Court rather than at the Willesden end, on odd occasions there are two LMS sets there together (eg morning peak, one is there 0700/0713, another is 0712/0722). Layover times at Earls Court are about 8-10 minutes in the peak, about 20-25 minutes off-peak, so there was an LMS set there most times. There's a map of the network including the Earls Court line, and photos of the stock used, here : easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~gsgleaves/northlondon.htmThe section between Shepherds Bush and Olympia (in those days named Addison Road) was shared with a Metropolitan service from Edgware Road along the Hammersmith line to Latimer Road, then round the curve mentioned above to terminate at Addison Road. This ran about every 20 minutes as well. Among other things it means that Olympia/Addison Road used to have an Underground service coming from the north only, now it has one coming to the same station from the opposite direction only. Is this unique ?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 4, 2009 17:14:46 GMT
another long-lost shuttle, also from Willesden Junction to Acton Central and then Kew Bridge. I hadn't realised the South Acton - Kew Bridge connection was ever electrified! Was it still so when the LSWR's Hounslow loop went live? Incidentally, the thread title refers to Willesden Green, but all the discussion has been about Willesden Junction. Have there ever been direct services WG to EC? perhaps via Aldgate, and probably before the Bakerloo took over local services in 1938. but I
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Nov 8, 2009 11:18:30 GMT
With the LMS set taking up so much time and space at EC, it makes me wonder how the DR trains managed with the single e/b line out of Earls Court.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 13:12:47 GMT
With difficulty, I would imagine!!
"The yard" siding east of the station didn't become a through road until 5 June 1966.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 21:53:00 GMT
I hadn't realised the South Acton - Kew Bridge connection was ever electrified! Was it still so when the LSWR's Hounslow loop went live? The Hounslow loop went live first - 12 March 1916, as opposed to 1 October 1916 for South Acton - Kew Bridge. (Source: A Chronology of the Electric Railways of Great Britain & Ireland, Electric Railway Society, 1981)
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