metman
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Post by metman on Oct 17, 2009 10:23:23 GMT
Oh, by M stock I meant ex-Hammersmith and City stock which would have become Q35 stock eventually.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 17, 2009 10:33:14 GMT
I think the 'M' is just for Metadyne; the other options are MW, V, VT, W, SS, B.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 17, 2009 10:47:26 GMT
Ah, MW - (T stock), V - Met Saloon stock (1905), VT - MW motors powering saloon stock trailers, W - MW motors pulling bogie stock, SS - Dreadnought Steam stock and B - bogie stock (M/N trains) electric stock.
Were the 3 trains of Q38 stock running at this time still I wonder?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 17, 2009 11:19:47 GMT
Not sure - I've just recently got the 1939 FA Cup TTN that mentions a Q38 - at the risk of wandering too far off topic I'll have a quick gander, as I've not had time to sit down and read it fully yet.....
During the period of the TTN, there is a Q stock off Aldgate to Watford at 11.21, 12.28pm off Watford to BkS, 1.18pm off BkS to Stanmore, 1.58pm St - BkS, 2.33pm BkS - WmP and stable.
It is labelled as a 'Q' in the galley headers, and you'll be pleased to know has the train number of 38, so it is a Q38 stock running as the Q38 train.
Back to Chesham
Ah - one final aside: I've seen a galley header for an MW7 (one first and 6 thirds).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 11:56:58 GMT
The max stock for the July 1939 WTT was as follows:
1-14 14xMW8 - 8-coach trains of MW stock, compartment motor cars and 1927-33 trailers.
15-19 5xW8 - 8-coach trains of compartment stock motors and Ashbury trailers.
20-24 5xQ8 - 8 car trains of newly delivered Q38 Stock.
25-33 9xP8 - 8-car trains of the newly delivered P Stock (I should point out these were shown as 'M' for Metadyne - see MRFS's note above. P Stock is my own reference note). It should be noted that only 3xP8 had been commissioned from 17/7/39 and any balance was probably made up with Saloon Stock until they became available.
34-41 8xV8 - 8-car trains of 1904-21 'Saloon' Stock.
42-48 7xVT7 - 7-coach trains of compartment stock motors and saloon stock trailers.
49-50 2xN8 - 8-coach trains of Ashbury Stock.
The midday uncoupling and coupling was done (mostly) at Wembley Park and to a lesser extent at Stanmore:
4xMW8 made 8xMW4
1xW8 made 2xW4
2xV8 made 4xV4
1xVT7 made 1xVT4 with three cars stabling at Stanmore.
During the midday period the Stanmore-Wembley shuttle was operated by 'tube' stock - Pre-1938 until the end of July and (in theory) 1938 from then until the Bakerloo reached Stanmore on 20.11.39.
The loco-hauled stock had set numbers 115-122 (all 6 coaches) and the Chesham was 125 (2 coaches).
On Sundays the loco-hauled stock was 95-100 and the Chesham was 107. Train 96 was six cars until 08.44 RK, where an extra coach was added, making 7 coaches until stabling at 23.17 Neasden. The extra one coach came from Neasden loco-hauled empty depart 07.12, RK arrive 07.32 and couple at 08.44.
The returning Chesham set on Sunday morning comprised 2 coaches plus a (non-functional) Pullman coach, which had been stabled there since Saturday lunch time.
More on the Cheshams to follow, as promised .....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 13:07:49 GMT
Chesham Branch - Morning Peak from 17/7/39:
After the 06.57 ex-Chesham LNER to Marylebone -
Shuttle (2 coaches) 07.08 Chalfont - Chesham (07.17).
Through train 6 coaches 06.23 Baker Street - Chesham (07.27). Two coaches were then detached from this train to work 07.37 Chesham to Chalfont (07.46), leaving 4 coaches from it at Chesham.
The original shuttle (2 coaches, which arrived at 07.17, above) worked 07.46 Chesham - Chalfont (07.55).
This gave 2x2-coach sets at Chalfont, which coupled to 4 coaches and worked 07.58 Chalfont - Chesham 08.07.
After this 4-coach train arrived at Chesham at 08.07, 2 coaches were detached and were coupled to the four coaches already at Chesham, to form the 08.12 Chesham - Liverpool Street (6 coaches).
The two coaches left then formed the 08.47 Chesham - Chalfont (08.55).
Quite how this worked in practice, I haven't yet determined - perhaps someone else can help on this one?
Was this another way of changing over the coaches on the shuttle?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 13:42:23 GMT
I am presuming that this shuffling of stock would have taken place up to 1940 before the de-electrified 'Ashbury' sets were used. Was this also the point at which the LNER took over responsibility for providing the motive power as the pictures that I have seen of 'Dreadnought' stock on the branch shuttle service up until then all have LT locomotives. One final question. I presume that the four 'Ashbury' coaches that were sold to the 'Bluebell Railway' (and the KWVR 'Dreadnoughts') were delivered to thier new homes by rail?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 15:45:43 GMT
The LNER took over responsibility for working LPTB passenger trains north of Rickmansworth, and all LPTB goods trains (north of Baker Street - were there any others?) from 1 November 1937: I have never read anything saying that the Chesham branch was not included at this point.
As part of the deal the larger Met Locos (classes G, H and K) were transferred to the LNER and moved 'across the line' to Neasden LNER shed.
Presumably the LNER then used whatever locomotives that were available/convenient/suitable for the LPTB trains (which may or may not have been the ex Met ones), as part of its general matching of locomotives to trains (and to some extent could borrow locos from LPTB if necessary).
To what extent were the LPTB trains segregated to separate loco diagrams (then or later)?
While initially it would appear that a Met E was borrowed for the Chesham branch (Frank Goudie records them as normal power for the branch shuttle into 1938), I would assume that any of the smaller passenger tanks at Neasden LNER were then used (it certainly had an allocation of F1 2-4-2Ts, as well as C13 & C14s).
It would appear that Neasden did not have any F2s pre war, but the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER records 5784 has having had a spell at Neasden in 1943 for the Chesham shuttle (it was pp fitted).
AIUI the pp system used for the Chesham trains was the standard LNER vacuum system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 20:23:47 GMT
Magister Ludi: I am MOST appreciative of your kind offer and have sent you a PM with my address.
Having never even seen a WTT, I am interested in just about anything in this regard - not a specific issue, etc. If even just to see one and be able to follow some of the discussions.
So anything sent is a real plus.
Natterlee: I have also responded in a PM to your offer.
Thanks all!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 19, 2009 11:09:03 GMT
Right then: some scanning - herewith the diagrams for Chalfont & Latimer and Chesham:   1942 Analysis sheets to follow. (They are split into separate images, and I'm pretty sure that they're within the rules) Saturdays Excepted:   Saturdays Only:   Sundays Only:  More to come - but you can already see that the patterns have changed somewhat! 1944, by comparison was virtually identical – there were only some minor changes of about a minute or two – the LNE trains arrived and departed at broadly the same times. The engine change by the same means with the shuttle engine running round at C&L, hauling the stock to Cm and then detaching as N34 (Neasden engine 34) is attached at the rear, then as in 1942 running to C&L as [Van] Engine N34 [Push-Pull stock] Shuttle engine. The Engine and Van arriving in Cm to shunt the yard was N35; although that movement was some 20 minutes later than 1942. Changeovers took place on a Sunday, with the new stock running passenger from WmP, and as previously suspected below Rk these changeover moves were diagrammed for electric engines. For the rest of the 40s there was very little change – I don’t have many full-fat WTTs from this period, although I’ve read several: I do have TTNs, and they shew precious little in the way of change – perhaps the most significant was by 1950 the morning LNE/ER trains off Cm had changed into trains from Ay, the mid-afternoon engine swap still went on in the time-honoured fashion and the changeover came up from WmP in service. I’ll do another set of analysis sheets for one of the early 50s WTTs, possibly ‘52/’53 then I can look at the Coronation TTNs, to see if anything strange went on there. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 15:08:04 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 23, 2009 7:27:52 GMT
I'm just perusing the TTNs for the Coronation; as that will be the greatest difference in Cm shuttle working during the ensuing decade: things had settled down into a very stable pattern indeed - but I'm pretty sure that I've got some Christmas/Easter TTNs too for this period - if you're still with us the saga will continue.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Oct 23, 2009 7:45:45 GMT
Apologies for only posting links but I have been unable to work out how to post the images directly. Good on ya! We prefer links to direct posting, especially for big pics!! |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Oct 23, 2009 10:14:18 GMT
Apologies for only posting links but I have been unable to work out how to post the images directly. There is a helpful tutorial HERE which should help you for future reference. |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Oct 23, 2009 18:33:20 GMT
Gosh, who'd have thought so much could be written about a 3-car train?? And the amount of organising the getting of the 3 car train there and back. It's all this gumph the general public fail to realise, the background of railway operating.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2009 17:16:00 GMT
I now have the added incentive to finish the model. I bought a push-pull fitted Ivatt tank on ebay last night! It just happened to be a Neasden one too!
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Post by rogere on Nov 13, 2009 13:37:57 GMT
Glyn,
Only just joined, so have come late to the discussion.
What stock will you be using for the shuttle set?
I have built sets from both the London Road range, and from plasticard sides/ends produced by the late Joe Brook-Smith.
Just one thing - for added realism you need to ensure the guard coach smells of fish!
That's the one over-riding memory I have of the shuttle during the 1960s.
Roger
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2009 14:26:34 GMT
I'm carving up Triang clerestory coaches. It's the budget alternative to someone who breaks out in a cold sweat when etched brass is mentioned! I think I'll pass on the fishy smell.... Great memory to have though. It's the sort of stuff that historians miss!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2009 16:29:28 GMT
Took delivery of a 1959 Ian Allan London Underground ABC today (ebay will be death of me...). In it is a picture of No1 'John Lyon' clearly coupled to the driving end of a Chesham driving trailer. The vacuum pipe (sorry Tunbeprune, HOSE  ) is connected and the picture gives a great idea of the height differential between the two vehicles. |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Nov 17, 2009 18:23:51 GMT
Ah, Joe Brook-Smith, that's the chap I got the plasticard sides from amny years ago. I've still got a set of LT drwaings for the Ashburys somewhere in my collection.
BTW, there's a layout of Horsted Keynes on RMweb where the chap has made a good representation of the Chesham stock; not accurate, but it looks the part. Well done to him.
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Post by rogere on Nov 17, 2009 21:55:22 GMT
Jim Snowdon's Met Rolling Stock book (Wild Swan) has an excellent set of drawings of the Ashburys, including the Chesham Branch set.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 17, 2009 22:04:18 GMT
We know - we've been trying to persuade Glyn to buy a copy for aaaaages! ;D
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Post by rogere on Nov 17, 2009 22:17:51 GMT
How can anyone wanting to model the Met not have a copy?
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Glyn - beg, borrow, steal or, better still, buy a copy.
(alternatively if all you want is a copy of the Ashbury plans - contact Jim Snowdon, and get him to send you enlarged copies of his plans - that's what Clive Thomas did when he drew-up the artwork for the, now, London Road Ashbury coaches)
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 20, 2009 15:53:21 GMT
Apologies for this - my TT review seems to have slipped a bit; not that I've not got round to doing it more that the workings of the shuttle itself were only really retimed after introduction. The Coronation services were extended to run a lot earlier/later but apart form that it seems to have stayed pretty well constant. I promise I've revisit this soon!
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) is connected and the picture gives a great idea of the height differential between the two vehicles. 
