Chesham branch push-pull sets

For D5300 you may be refering to class 27s some of which stayed on the London end of the Midland Main Line until 1967. I have three pictures of them on the Southern! As for trip cocks, I have found the book I mentioned in another thread and it clearly shows trip-cock apparatus on the leading end of the bogie on the Secondmans bogie on a class 24 (albeit an Eastern one). I seem to remember seeing a pic of the same arrangement on a Cricklewood 27. I'll have a delve and see if I can track it down.

If the Sunday run with the Chesham set ran via Baker Street does this mean it ran with passengers and did it definately run with an electric to Rickmansworth? What price a photo!

Superb! Thanks for that mrfs42. Were all of the vehicles the same length? My method of building will result in a driving trailer that will be slightly longer than the other two vehicles but it shouldn't show up too much..... I hope!

The Bogie stock cars were all the same length as far as I know.

I don't think a full-length set (6 Dreadnoughts = 330' + loco) would fit in the bay (seems about 250'), so presumably the through platforms were used (is there an appropriate note in the WTT?).

At that stage, was there a crossover at the south end of C&L?



The question is surely whether the new, relieving, set was pulled or pushed from Ricky to Chesham - I assume it was far easier for the branch engine to go on the front at Ricky (as a normal engine change there), and then run round when it got to Chesham, than to put it on the back at Ricky (and connect up the control gear as well as the normal coupling and brake)



Implying that for a period there were two sets SS125 running around - was this (two with the same number) at all common?

No, my unnumbered pencil sketch (pre-1949) matches exactly with what Natalie has webbed up - the only points missing are a set of trap points in the NB road south of C&L. Platform workings are not expressly noted in the WTTs I've looked in detail at thus far - however I've got loads of examples to go and the printing style has changed several times. Platform numbers may appear in the later WTTs, but OTTOMH I don't think they appeared (if at all) until the Gill Sans WTTs of the late 60s and beyond.



Aha! I spent the journey this morning Cantuar - Charing X and back (trip to Acton, to pick up an Angel roundel for angelislington) continuing my in-depth look at 1941. All will be revealed in context, but the engine went on the London end at Ricky. A few other quirks too, I will continue typing up 1941 and things *might* become clearer - it is a modeller's dream what went on with the engines!

Never say 'Never' - I *think* there was one timetabled sometime - but with the details of about three million individually timetabled trains in my library I can't recall the details.

I'm just keying in Saturdays Excepted for 1941 into a word document, which I hope to finish this afternoon. I shall then be having a day off from the Chesham shuttles tomorrow and catching up on some scanning for forum members. Not that I'm bored with it: I just need to clear my head a bit!! ;D

With reference to the 'top and tail' Chesham Electric loco workings I think a similar working operated in the morning (from Neasden IIRC) to get the loco to Chesham for the first Up/SB through working. I am doing the early 1960s (1960-1965) at the moment and will post when the summaries reach that period so that they are all in the correct order.

Certainly there were the Met electrics that ran in the morning coupled as one train from Neasden to Bishops Road for the GWR through workings. This would feature three or four locos depending on the timetable. Other loco moves would involve more than one loco coupled together but this is not really what you are asking.

As an aside I shall do a similar summary (in a new topic) of the through GW passengers to the City. They are an interesting topic in their own right.

I keep trying to remember but think that some EE Type 2 (Class 31) were fitted with tripcocks as were the BTH Class 15 (for the Northern Line) though possibly some EE Type 1 (Class 20) were fitted? Today Classes 31, 33 and 73 only are allegedly permitted on the CWL. No 33s or 73s were ever fitted with t/cs I am sure. Did the SR 33s use the same basic bodyshell as the earlier 26s and 27s?

Of course as we know a Class 25 was trialled on the Met and ran to Uxbridge, and that would not have been 'fitted'.

Everyones become extremely worried about thread drift and thread topics recently

Wasn't it mentioned on here in the past that class 25(s) was offered for sale to LT but BR wanted too much money for them second-hand, and there weren't a perfect solution anyway? Or was that something entirely different? If they were to have been owned by LT then presumably they would have had tripcocks fitted eventually...

Having now set the scene with a detailed written analysis of the first push-pull TT, the next set of information is better delivered as images of the analysis sheets, with specific comments on the column notes - hopefully it will be more readable for those who have just dipped into the thread, and those that want the fuller information can chase up/ print out the images. ;D

For those of a signalling bent (Natalie ) - there is a note in the 1942 WTT reading 'Chalfont and Latimer Down Branch Starter depart 8.30' seems an odd instruction to have as a column note, needs further pondering as there doesn't seem to be any attaching going on. Curious.

Yes please, very much to the diagram of Chesham; although the starter referred to is at Chalfont. When I scan the analysis sheets, I'll also web up the drawing of Chesham that I mentioned earlier too, to see if it matches.

Would I be right in thinking that the Down starter at Chalfont was released by the tablet and the Up starter at Chesham was just slotted: ie no LCR? The diagram I've got has Chesham 17 as two co-acting colour-lights. My diagram has only two TCs: 'M' straddling the home and 'L' from 'M' to near 8 points (which were economic); although 'L' is the only coloured track - which tends to indicate in this collection of diagrams that it was indicated.

Watch this space - I've got to look at some wiring diagrams for Lock-and-Block instruments this afternoon (but that's a completely different story: and not Met. instruments either!).

The WTTs I'm currently looking at are 97/98 - when the Watford trains became six-car.

Hi,
I have just had a look in WTT No 92 (No 2 Section May 26th 1942) as I just happen to have it on this machine rather than searching through a memory card.... It may not be that much different to nos 97/98. However the same legend as you describe appears on the WTT too. I have come up with a possible explanation..

At 8.21 1/2am push-pull train no 125 leaves Chalfont arriving at Chesham at 8.29am. Right behind this is an LNER train - 7.35am Marylebone- Chesham. It is shown as departing Chalfont at 8.26am and arriving at Chesham at 8.39am. This train is shown in the column underneath as 'C&L Down Branch Starter at 8.30am'.

A simple explanation would be that the LNER train was standing there (at C&L down branch starter) awaiting the road. The push/pull shuttle did not arrive at Chesham until 8.29 and therefore the single line would not be clear until after then.

You may ask why not just keep the LNER train in the down platform at Chalfont awaiting acceptance? The answer to that is that right behind is the 7.18am Baker Street- Aylesbury service formed with SS set 118. It was booked to depart Rickmansworth at 8.25am following a loco change and call at Chorley Wood at 8.31am and calling at Chalfont 8.37am. Until the LNER train to Chesham was clear of the down main at Chalfont then the signalman would have been unable to see its tail lamp and therefore unable to clear out to Chorley Wood. Absolute block was still in use on this section in 1942. Another factor is the 7.56 Aylesbury- Marylebone LNER train in the up direction. This would have left Amersham at 8.29 am and departed (or passed?) Chalfont at 8.33am. The running of this service would affect the decision made by the signalman at Chalfont in getting the Marylebone-Chesham train over the junction. If he had accepted the Aylesbury- Marylebone service then he would be unable to get the Chesham train over the junction until the train from Aylesbury was clear.

For the non signalmen this was because in absolute block you have to have a clearance point of 440 yard after the home signal to accept a train from the box in the rear- and once a train had been accepted you could not occupy that clearance point with a conflicting movement (ie by putting the Chesham train over the junction). Although we are only talking minutes they can make the difference

Looking deeper into things another interesting point is that the shuttle is shown to go back to Chalfont at 8.44 1.2am. This means that there are two passenger trains at Chesham between 8.39 and 8.44am (ie the shuttle and the LNER train). Remember the bay platform is some 18 years away. Assumption is that the shuttle would have been moved out of the way of the platform pretty soon after arrival at Chesham to clear the platform for the LNER train- possibly via the sidings at the north end and then into the loop to await the arrival of the LNER service.

Another possibility is that the LNER train simply entered the occupied platform behind the shuttle but I am not sure whether such permissive workings with passengers were authorised- certainly no signals existed for the move so if the move was allowed it would have been by handsignal (difficult as the box would have been out of sight) or on verbal instruction from the signalman. The lack of an SPT would suggest this was unlikely too. On arrival of that the shuttle could then come back out of the loop (onto the single line but still inside no 17 up advanced starter) and then set back into the still occupied platform (with the LNER train) ready for a departure back to Chalfont at 8.44 1/2am.

Once the shuttle was out of the way at 8.44 1/2 am then the LNER loco was free to run-round via the loop and prepare to take its train back to Marylebone at 9.13am.

I hope the above makes sense!

What is really needed are the special instructions for Chesham box and the working instructions for the single line- I think I have this so will have a look for them.

Hi Tony
They are available in the National Archives at Kew and the London Transport Archive at Acton. Looking at your location however suggests that this could be a problem for you! Private message should be in your inbox hopefully!

Natalie: Yes, that would be marvellous! I'll try and finish off 1942 in between bouts of bellringing this evening and most of the weekend.



Tony: I've got an extensive personal library of WTTs - in that I'm fortunate that I can just potter into a room and pick them up. The only significant problem I have is that when an interesting question pops up in the forum, it is usually in the small hours of the morning and I don't really want to disturb angelislington who is normally asleep by then!

If you send me a PM of your home address, I'll see if I can find a duplicate and post it over. ;D (it won't be anything as ancient as the '40s, but I'll see what I can find - I've usually got about 40 duplicates sculling about)