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Post by carlovel1 on Sept 18, 2009 22:08:01 GMT
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Post by kewgardensteleport on Sept 18, 2009 22:58:28 GMT
Well, it's no worse than an Alan Foale original, so you can give yourself a pat on the back for that: you're up there with the professionals!
But I would give you some pointers: 1) Don't edit official maps. I'm not saying this for legal reasons (although other people may do). The point is that editing raster graphics (e.g. PNG, GIF, BMP, PCX, JPG) is a pain and that even if you do manage to extract the vector image (e.g. SVG, AI) from the PDF, you'll find that it's not very good and hard to stay consistent to. It really is far easier to draw it all yourself. Which brings me onto... 2) Draw the entire network. This ensures that your neat segment fits with everything else. Trade offs happen. You can't be a total map fundamentalist. It's better to break the rules than draw something utterly barbaric. 3) Know what design principles you're using. These include angles, curve radii, line weights, fonts, whether labels can overlap the river, minimising kinks, and so on. You can decide what matters to you, but it is imperative to be decisive. And if something doesn't work, try again. Everyone has produced their horrors... 4) If you haven't already, do buy a copy of Max Roberts' "Underground Maps After Beck". This is an absolutely fantastic book that shows you what's already been tried and why. And, yes, it is by the same Max who posts here.
So welcome to the cartography addiction!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 23:08:04 GMT
Thanks for the pointers, I've been editing the PDF tube maps by extracting it to SVG (mostly for crazy tube challenging purposes) Today I've tried something a little more serious - experimenting with the nu-circle line. As you say, I've found that even working with the exported-to-vector maps take a lot of work to edit, mostly because all the labels are in one massive glob that my editor won't unpick nicely... I'm finding managing the curve radii the hardest part at the moment, probably mostly because I'm only just getting into vector graphics. I'm using Inkscape at the moment, can you recommend any better?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 23:09:32 GMT
And if the Met were extended to Watford Junction, wouldn't that bring it inside a TfL zone?
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Post by carlovel1 on Sept 18, 2009 23:10:38 GMT
i use paint
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 2:00:49 GMT
You don't need the kink, it is not keeping with the style. Someone else may be able to link you to the '2016 Tube Map' where the Croxley Link is shown to give you an idea of how close you are to tfl in-house thinking.
Watford Junction wouldn't automatically be in the zonal system.
I used Paint Shop Pro a couple of times with reasonable results.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 3:05:48 GMT
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Post by bassmike on Sept 19, 2009 7:17:17 GMT
re 2025 map, are they going to dig a bypass round watford high street for met trains?
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Post by timbobean on Sept 19, 2009 7:19:08 GMT
Looking round these maps its painful to see how many schemes have bit the (Boris) dust
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 7:29:58 GMT
Looking round these maps its painful to see how many schemes have bit the (Boris) dust Not just Boris. All three local councils opposed the West London Transit which didn't help. Lack of central government funding for the Cross River Tram.... A rather large dose of optimism from TFL with regards to the 2016 map.
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Post by carlovel1 on Sept 19, 2009 7:57:15 GMT
But if im to do my ov maps then what fonts do I use for writing the stations?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 8:41:47 GMT
I do the entire thing in ITC Johnston. Bought it a while back, it's basically the old Johnston type face.
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Post by carlovel1 on Sept 19, 2009 8:52:33 GMT
I have johnstons font , but it's the new one , do I need the old one?
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Post by max on Sept 19, 2009 8:59:40 GMT
ITC Jonston has some differences with the proper versions, and it's kerned horribly. A good test for any Johnston immitation is to type in UNDERGROUND and see how many lightyears there are between the R and the G.
P22 has been updated recently, some things are better in the new version, some are worse.
You've got a copy of New Johnston? Naughty.
For vector graphics, I use Intaglio for straightforward maps (great software, almost worth getting a Mac just to use it) and Canvas for my more avante guarde designs, its bezier curves are great. Sadly no longer available for Mac, but I wouldn't touch Illustrator with a bargepole.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Sept 19, 2009 9:43:06 GMT
Illustrator CS4 is alright actually; its got auto snapping guidlines and various bits and pieces that make it vastly better to use than Illustrator CS, which I previously had. Course I wouldn't pay for either, mind; but its alright.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 9:50:08 GMT
I did have the New Johnston font, but I lost it when I formatted my hard-drive and forgot to back it up x(
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Post by kewgardensteleport on Sept 19, 2009 13:27:55 GMT
Wow! I presume that's a maximize number of changes without hesitation, repetition, or deviation? There are two ways of doing that: 1) The proper way: draw a segment of a circle. 2) The cheating in Inkscape way: draw a straight line segment joining up where the two ends of your arc will be, then select the segment with the "Edit Paths by Nodes" tool, then on the toolbar above the drawing click the "Make selected segments curves" icon and then the "Make selected segments symmetric" icon. This will create a rather good bezier approximation of an arc (so long as you don't go through more than a right-angle, otherwise you would need a smooth node half-way). You then don't ever tell anyone that you've done this. 2a) In case you haven't worked it out, the line segment that becomes your pseudo-arc should have equal angles with the line segments at both ends: and you'll notice quickly that drawing a line at 22½ degrees to any other line is a pain (if you do the maths, that evil number root 2 starts appearing), so there is some pain in cheating with 45-degree arcs. You might well argue that you should do it properly instead. No, Inkscape is very user-friendly (and is actually being developed in a sensible direction). It's much better than AI. So unless you have money to burn on a Mac, just stick to Inkscape. You could do far worse. If you want raster graphics, there is an argument for something simple (Kolourpaint is my favourite on that side of the fence). You don't need the kink, it is not keeping with the style. I don't know. I thought unnecessary double kinks around zone boundaries were very Alan Foale. Looking round these maps its painful to see how many schemes have bit the (Boris) dust Should have made them stronger schemes to start with. But if im to do my ov maps then what fonts do I use for writing the stations? Univers Condensed Medium, if you want everything to look suitably retro. Or it could be tempting to go along the whole Free Software route and use a free (as in speech) font.
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Post by amershamsi on Sept 19, 2009 13:54:00 GMT
Looking round these maps its painful to see how many schemes have bit the (Boris) dust These schemes had to be alive, not conjecture to have bit the dust. CRT and WLT got to consultation and failed. Tramlink to Crystal Palace got onto the find-funding stage, and is on the shelf at the moment, thanks to PPP and the money pit that is Crossrail. Greenwich Waterside/East London Transit have been watered down, but that was under Ken. No scheme has bitten the dust because of Boris - they bit the dust because they were either at best conjecture, or because they were ill-thought-out or because they were unpopular. Boris had to often say it, because Ken was too chicken too. Not just Boris. All three local councils opposed the West London Transit which didn't help. Lack of central government funding for the Cross River Tram.... Camden opposed CRT, Central Government opposed pretty much everything TfL came up with that the DfT hadn't... Boris' sins when it comes to transport are of omission of pushing projects, rather than that of stopping projects.This is the key - Ken was pushing this bit of spin, showing all the unfunded schemes that had been vaguely proposed (I'm suprised the DLR Horizon study stayed under wraps). Central Government's hatred of funding infrastructure, especially rail and tram added to Metrolink's collapse and Crossrail taking all of TfL's big projects budget for the next few years. The Crystal Palace area was annoyed when they found out that Crossrail would mean that Tramlink there wouldn't get funding. Ken had all but scrapped things like CRT, TGT, Tramlink extensions and so on before he left office. Boris came and basically removed the spin and gave the reality. However Ken had vision, Boris doesn't seem to. There's pros and cons with both pessamistic-realism and optimisic-idealism - you want something in the middle. The 2016 map is misleading anyway - bus schemes, tram schemes that are often vague lines (Wimbledon-Sutton wouldn't go via Wimbledon Chase, but rather Morden (making the tube challenge that bit easier)) that are shown as equivalent to tube lines. Crossrail was still on it's pre-Olympic 2013 date here, rather than the later date of 2017 given about a year later. Things like Watford and Shoreditch are still there, despite it being known at that time that Shoreditch would be under an embankment if Shoreditch High Street opened. -------------- On the subject of the Croxely link, this is held ransom by Central Government and regional policy - East of England have finally put the scheme high up it's list (the scheme only serves a small area on the edge of that region, likewise with Greater London). The problem is now Central Government giving East of England enough transport money to build it. For the map, I think it's hard to do - there's not much space, and there's quite a few stations to get in. The zones really don't help with it. Ideally, I'd have a triangle, with a right angle at Moor Park. However unless the Sept09 style of map stays, that won't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 16:35:01 GMT
Wow! I presume that's a maximize number of changes without hesitation, repetition, or deviation? Longest route (in terms of number of stations) we've found without repetition or leaving the network. 3 groups did that route in a staggered start a couple of months ago, times didn't vary much, 6h24-36. It got very painful waiting for a circle train at Gloucester Road just to go back to EC, seeing 3 districts go past in the meantime. Anyway, all that's off-topic. The Croxley link would add a very weird (imo) right angle to that corner of the map, it'd take a bit of getting used to.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 19, 2009 16:51:25 GMT
Wimbledon-Sutton wouldn't go via Wimbledon Chase, but rather Morden (making the tube challenge that bit easier) Not much - the No 93 bus runs between Wimbledon, South Wimbledon and Morden every few minutes. A tram wouldn't be much quicker, or more frequent.
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Post by amershamsi on Sept 19, 2009 17:17:52 GMT
but the tram would be segregated and wouldn't go via the bus station. (trust me, I did it Monday). With fewer stops, it would be quicker and would drop you off in the station.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2009 20:18:11 GMT
And if the Met were extended to Watford Junction, wouldn't that bring it inside a TfL zone? I doubt it, London Midland run from Watford Junction to London Euston and I can't see London Midland agreeing to anything that could result in a loss of revenue.
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