Staff knowledge of photography rules

Yes, the behaviour of the security guard, c2c Station Assistant and Train Operator is unnaceptable, but you do have to ask yourself: "Why has this situation come about?"

We don't see the behaviour of the enthusiasts in the minutes leading up to the confrontation, and the person who posted the video to YouTube has been banned from this forum.

I'm not attempting to apportion blame here, but the enthusiasts concerned didn't help themselves one bit.

Surely a jobsworth is somebody who applies the rules with no flexibility, this seems to be someone applying rules that don't actually exist.

Now if it had been a bunch of drunken louts hanging around the station, what would the staff have done?

It's a shame, because this video spreading around (regardless of the circumstances that lead up to it) will dent a lot of the goodwill from the Open Weekend, where the staff couldn't have been more enthusiastic and welcoming. (One was even rumoured to have been seen driving a very small tube train).

Well if theres one thing that'll occur after this its that various people will get egg on their face. And then it'll happen again at some point in the future at some other occurance.

He shouldnt have got cocky with the 'security' guard; you cant fight beligerance with rudeness. Have to somewhat agree with Tom on one point in principal though; one doesn't know the situation behind it. But whatever the situation, and even given the risks Gavalex has taken in the past, it was very badly delt with. Very badly. That driver is identifyable to those in the know aswell, and the security gaurd was either lying deliberately, or just had no clue of the proper rules.

You are pretty much correct there Chris W.....

The station is operated by c2c. gavelex was quoting LU's traffic circular and LU's conditions of carriage, making himself look stupid.

They also bang on about Sarah Siddons by name - the c2c staff didn't know what they were talking about.....why would they? They work for c2c not LU!!!

The security staff work for a private firm contracted by c2c - they are there to provide security only and are most likely not particularly well versed in the rules of photography; quite frankly, why should they be? after all, that is not what they are there for!

Being the cocky teenager gavelex is, he'll come a cropper one day and I for one won't be surprised in the slightest.

As for identifying the driver - the forum staff would normally pull such a post but given the wide coverage this video already has, there's not much point as the damage has already been done.

As they are National Express/C2C employed security I'd guess not as NE wouldn't be concerned with what is happening on LU metals

For a start, one of the people involved states he works for Network Rail then is contradicted by someone else saying that he works for Virgin. Quoting LUs conditions of carriage on a TOC operated station doesn't help either. The vast majority of staff don't know the ins and outs of the CoC, so what hope have we got that a security guard contracted to a different company will?

Secondly, much as they may know the rules, fighting belligerence on the security guard's part with a 'know all' attitude only fans the flames. In cases like this, there is a good chance that there will be no winners overall and the easiest thing for an enthusiast to do is to put the camera away, apologise for your ignorance of the situation (regardless of who is really right or wrong) and go away quietly.

Wow! I take it the staff here are fully aware that non enthusiasts are reading this!

The one.thing that annoys me on this incident is the fact that the security guard is hastling a couple of teenagersover a bit of photography, but I've seen this very same security guard, and others standing around ignoring the fact when when there's. Been a group of mature men samoking and drinking on the platform. This smacks of. Bullying to me.

I thought I saw somebody driving the little red train, but as I chose that moment to take a power nap I'm now not sure I did. lol!

Anyway, on a more pressing note, I just hope that all station and security staff on the District line have been notified that the 1938 stock is in service on Friday night, which by the way I am going to have to sit out because otherwise I have to spend the night in London!



So do I and will do on Friday when I go to photograph Tornado!



I couldn't agree with you any more there Chris, and of course if there was to be legal action, the video would only have to come down anyway!



Which is of course incorrect! Overall, the poster of this video has made himself look very silly indeed!




What everyone has to bear in mind now days is that most TOCs are not unfortunately led by railway men. They are led by vast companies whose only interest most of the time is getting as many people into their carriages as possible!

Personally I don't see why the industry has such an issue with photography. I really don't.

But to get back to facts, from memory Upminister is a National Rail station thus the conditions of carriage and traffic circular mentioned in the you-tube video meant exactly what to C2C staff?

National Rail supply very handy advice for rail enthusiasts on their website www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

The guidelines state:

Before you enter the platform:

At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities.

On the station platform

You should ensure you act safely and sensibly at all times. Please remember the following:

Stay clear of the platform edge and behind the yellow lines where they are provided for safety reasons.
Do not trespass onto any area of the railway that is not available to passengers.
Do not climb on any structure or interfere with platform equipment.
Ensure that you do not obstruct any signalling equipment or signs which are vital to the safe running of the railways.
Avoid wearing anything which is similar in colour to safety clothing, such as high -visibility jackets, as this could cause confusion to drivers or other railway employees.
Avoid congregating at busy areas of the platform (e.g. customer information points, departure screens, waiting areas, seating etc.) or where this may interfere with the duties of station staff

Photography

Taking photographs on stations is permitted providing it is for personal use. For any commercial photography, prior permission must be sought from the appropriate train operator or, from Network Rail at their 17 major stations. On busy stations the use of a tripod may cause a dangerous obstruction to passengers and you may be asked not to use one. In addition, tripod legs must also be kept away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. Flash photography on platforms is not allowed as it may distract the attention of train drivers and train despatch staff and is therefore a potential safety hazard. You are also not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras.



Now as I see it I presume that all parties informed staff of their presence and the member of staff in the hi-vi was on duty so I personally don't see how any rules were broken.

...but tthats what the National Rail guidelines say.....

Having heard of people getting hassled on c2c stations before I am wary if attempting to take pix on them (which is not often, but Barking (plat.7) and Upminster (footbridge) were good vantage points for getting some of the last, and *the* last, unpainted D Stocks).

However all the talk of LU Conditions of Carriage, Traffic Circulars etc, was irrelevant being that Upminster is c2c/NatEx managed and not LU. So the security person was correct in asking people to approach a member of the station's management first.

Nevetheless, the fact that a) there perhaps wasn't any supervisor on duty by then, b) if even there was, this detour would result in the photographers missing the train, and c) this was quite obviously some sort of unusual/odd working evident to any layman; shows the total lack of common sense, discretion and flexibility held by the said gentleman.

This is the classic 'parking attendant/wheel clamper' mentality, a position to which he seems entirely suited. I guess he only wished he could have handed out fixed penalties to the photographers too (give it time...) and regrets his firm no longer issues peaked caps. Still, he's got a hi-vi, which is almost as good in 21st Century Britain (maybe a clipboard next?). I'm just glad I wasn't there as, alas, I feel my responses wouldn't have been so measured.

More seriously I hope someone in LU or the LTM tips off c2c regarding the 38TS' run next Friday or there could be even more trouble at this location...

Talking of rules, did anyone see the "no alcohol" ban being enforced on people travelling to the Notting Hill Carnival yesterday? (No, neither did I.)

I have met him and, Gavelex can like many teenagers, say things before thinking of the consequencies, but unlike many teenagers he's not going around vandalising property or causing trouble, his type really should be encouraged on rail property instead of the intimidation he gets. I repeat what I said last noght that I have personally seen that security guard doing nothing when burly passengers break rules on smoking, drinking and urinating on the station. Gavelex and his friends were easy targets for this guy to show his authority to. As for the driver, I think he was basically backing up the security guard, which is still inexcusable.
From what I understand on this, this has now gone up to the District Line Standards manager.

...also the fact that the run was unadvertised is irrevelant. If "rules are rules" then photography would still have been "banned" even if it was a public event.

Maybe we need railway enthusiasts to be classed as a disadvantaged minority group? Then, on LU at least, staff would be taught how to treat them as part of their "equality & inclusion" diversity training, and us staff members could have our own "Support Group" too.