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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 14, 2009 19:26:33 GMT
Had a look this morning - Gloucester Rd to Baker Street, and then a round trip from Baker Street to Paddington and back. Train duly arrived saying "Circle Line to Edgware Road". We left one person behind at NHG, another at Bayswater, and about five at Paddington, presumably all waiting for a Circle Line train. This despite several very clear announcements both on he platform and by the driver. I saw no DMIs at HSK, but at the next three stops they all said District Line to Edgware Road. So much for being able to tell which trains were going to platform 2 at Edgware Road for cross platform interchange! In the event it was academic, because after two stops between Padd and Edgware Road we ran into platform ......1! The train was being sent to Moorgate because a failed train was sitting in platform 2 and platform 3 was also occupied. For those of you still eager to actually ride on the same train from High Street Kensington to Baker Street, King's Cross, Liverpool Street and beyond- there are still a few through trains! Been there, done that - and at a much more civilised time! So, at Baker Street westbound, two trains both indicated "Hammersmith" within a minute of each other. I got the first one, but several people stayed on the platform. Whether because they were waiting for a Circle via HSK or just because the first one was packed I couldn't say. At E Rd a mass exodus across the bridges to Platform 2, as that was supposed to leave first. A few very confused passengers for Paddington, but most people seemed to know what was going on. The sight of two trains side by side in platforms 1 and 2, with destination blinds both reading "Circle Line via Aldgate" which then set off in opposite directions, might be considered a little confusing! Caught the next train to Bishops Road, where it was crowded (it was now about 0940) but not impossibly so. BTW, I recently sawa suggestion that w/b trains use platform 14, allowing platform 15 to become a turnback platform and effectively doubling the platform space and providing separate stairs for w/b and e/b passengers. Is this practicable?) Back to Praed Street, where a Circle was waiting for me. The DMI again said "District to Edgware Road" for that train nand the one behind. Quite a few people seemed to be waiting on the platform for something, again despite announcements that "the only station served from this platform is Edgware Road. Change there for onward connections". The fact that one of the maps in the booking hall is out of date (a March 2009!) can't help. Eventually we set off for Edgware Road, again stopping twice on the way. Lots of confused passengers, and a packed H&C in platform 1. The CSA on the platform said it had taken on two trainlaods from the HSK direction. One passenger asked if the train was the continuation of the Circle, and was told no, it was going to Barking. This was not helpful, as the chances are she was not going beyond Liverpool Street. Interestingly, of the five trains I used, only the last had the new in-car maps. Later in the day, I was using the "live departure boards" facility. Of the stations on the western side of the Circle, only HSK was giving any information, and very curious it was too. On the "westbound" (that is, coming from Paddington) it showed trains appraoching from ERD, but also trains about 25-30 minutes away between Cannon Street and Aldgate! I watched this for a while - they all magically disappeared just before arrival at Aldgate. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 14, 2009 21:05:48 GMT
The sight of two trains side by side in platforms 1 and 2, with destination blinds both reading "Circle Line via Aldgate" which then set off in opposite directions, might be considered a little confusing! Hmmm, this isn't going to trigger the 'rear blind' debate is it? At the forum meet we proved the need for an accurate rear blind as we stood on Farringdon footbridge and observed a Met travelling away from us, the rear blind saying "Aldgate". Helpful. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 14, 2009 21:44:03 GMT
In the event it was academic, because after two stops between Padd and Edgware Road we ran into platform ......1! The train was being sent to Moorgate because a failed train was sitting in platform 2 and platform 3 was also occupied. This is an eventuality which will always create late-notice alterations, and in this case it provided a now "rare" through service (though how rare remains to be seen.) Other than that, on the whole it appears that the largest source of problems were that of the un-educated, strangers to London, and those who simply don't trust us enough to listen to what we're saying - which is what you will see during any engineering timetable or during any disruption. There are a couple of minor points coming through which were seen on the trail weekends (the 2 trains ex HSK tipping into 1 eastbound springs to mind straight away. It should of course be 1 for 1.) Later in the day, I was using the "live departure boards" facility. Of the stations on the western side of the Circle, only HSK was giving any information, and very curious it was too. On the "westbound" (that is, coming from Paddington) it showed trains appraoching from ERD, but also trains about 25-30 minutes away between Cannon Street and Aldgate! I watched this for a while - they all magically disappeared just before arrival at Aldgate. There are still a couple of alterations to be made to our internal software - which feeds this sort of prediction. The program was written to recognise a train described as a "Circle" from Mansion House eastbound, and predict it as a "Circle Line" to all points west of Aldgate. I thought (given an internal communication recently) this had already been done, but clearly not. At the forum meet we proved the need for an accurate rear blind as we stood on Farringdon footbridge and observed a Met travelling away from us, the rear blind saying "Aldgate". Helpful. Again. Why? The train was leaving. You were clearly not on it. What difference does it make that the train was heading to Aldgate or not? The place to catch trains heading west at this location, is, strangely, from the westbound platform, which would not only provide you with a view of the dot matrix display but also a clear view of the front of the next train. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 14, 2009 23:08:35 GMT
Again. Why? The train was leaving. You were clearly not on it. What difference does it make that the train was heading to Aldgate or not? The place to catch trains heading west at this location, is, strangely, from the westbound platform, which would not only provide you with a view of the dot matrix display but also a clear view of the front of the next train. Not quite, on this occassion I was simply watching the trains go by, but I could quite easily have run down the stairs to get on the train. Consider these scenario: Assume I was travelling to some far flung MetroLand location lets say Amersham: As a customer, I prefer option 2, then 1, then 4 then 3. Mind you, I guess the SSR mantra is "catch the first train, change if you have to", which means regardless of the rear blind I've gotta run down the stairs with my case! However, none of this has anything really to do with The New Circle, so lets leave it there. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 14, 2009 23:13:01 GMT
At the forum meet we proved the need for an accurate rear blind as we stood on Farringdon footbridge and observed a Met travelling away from us, the rear blind saying "Aldgate". Helpful. Again. Why? The train was leaving. You were clearly not on it. What difference does it make that the train was heading to Aldgate or not? The place to catch trains heading west at this location, is, strangely, from the westbound platform, which would not only provide you with a view of the dot matrix display but also a clear view of the front of the next train. He says "travelling away from him", i.e. he's looking at the back. He didn't say it was actually in motion. As it hadn't yet left he could still run for it if it was going where he wanted to go. Admittedly he had until at least GPSt to find out where it was actually going - even if he had been a "normal" who can't tell an "A" from a "C", but there are some stations where you enter the platform facing the rear of any train already in the platform, AND the routes diverge before the next station - Earl's Court is a very good example. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 14, 2009 23:23:31 GMT
There are a couple of minor points coming through which were seen on the trail weekends (the 2 trains ex HSK tipping into 1 eastbound springs to mind straight away. It should of course be 1 for 1.) When I travelled it was actually four ex-HSK trains (two of each flavour) tipping into one eastbound. This was around midday on Sunday and the onward eastbound train resembled what I'd expect of the shoulder of the evening peak on the old service. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 0:18:25 GMT
[Again. Why? The train was leaving. You were clearly not on it. What difference does it make that the train was heading to Aldgate or not? The place to catch trains heading west at this location, is, strangely, from the westbound platform, which would not only provide you with a view of the dot matrix display but also a clear view of the front of the next train. The rule book requires the correct destination to be shown on the rear of the train (excepting variations on route) and that is that! I wasn't aware we could pick and choose which bits of the rule book we comply with !  |
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Post by djlynch on Dec 15, 2009 0:37:12 GMT
When I was at Uni, the shuttle buses to/from/around the campus had both front and rear destination blinds that could be changed simultaneously by pressing a button which operated electric motors at both the front and the rear display. I suppose this is a moot point now given the imminent replacement of the C stock, but I'm surprised that LU never put something like that into service.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 1:11:11 GMT
When I was at Uni, the shuttle buses to/from/around the campus had both front and rear destination blinds that could be changed simultaneously by pressing a button which operated electric motors at both the front and the rear display. I suppose this is a moot point now given the imminent replacement of the C stock, but I'm surprised that LU never put something like that into service. The P86 stock on the DLR had these originally, but they didn't last long - blinds got caught and ripped by the force of the winding! |
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 15, 2009 1:33:12 GMT
When I was at Uni, the shuttle buses to/from/around the campus had both front and rear destination blinds that could be changed simultaneously by pressing a button which operated electric motors at both the front and the rear display. I suppose this is a moot point now given the imminent replacement of the C stock, but I'm surprised that LU never put something like that into service. The P86 stock on the DLR had these originally, but they didn't last long - blinds got caught and ripped by the force of the winding! Such technology was, I believe, problematic originally - but it is successfully employed by competent bus operators such as LRT. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 6:31:04 GMT
The rule book requires the correct destination to be shown on the rear of the train (excepting variations on route) and that is that! I wasn't aware we could pick and choose which bits of the rule book we comply with ! Why not? Half the managers do!!! ;D   ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 10:32:28 GMT
Boris is now signed up for the new service pattern, although you may think he isn't wildly enthusiastic:
Boris Johnson (Chair, TfL) and Peter Hendy (Commissioner, TfL)
Circle Line (1)
Question No: 307 / 2009
Kit Malthouse
What will be the effect on a) quantity b) frequency and c) reliability of trains serving the Bayswater station when the new ‘extended’ Circle line comes into operation next month?
Answer from the Chair and Commissioner:
Bayswater will continue to be served by both the Circle and District lines, with a train arriving on average every five minutes. The service will be more reliable, with more even spacing between trains and quicker recovery in the event of disruption.
*
Boris Johnson (Chair, TfL) and Peter Hendy (Commissioner, TfL)
Circle Line (2)
Question No: 308 / 2009
Kit Malthouse
Does the Mayor expect the new Circle line service pattern to be a permanent change or will it be reviewed and assessed in due course?
Answer from the Chair and Commissioner:
The change will be permanent. As with all new timetables, a review will be conducted following implementation to ensure the anticipated benefits have been realised and to identify any further improvements that can be made.
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Post by citysig on Dec 15, 2009 10:58:56 GMT
The rule book requires the correct destination to be shown on the rear of the train (excepting variations on route) and that is that! I wasn't aware we could pick and choose which bits of the rule book we comply with ! Well if it's in the rule book, then in that case I'll start delaying the service, consequently potentially dumping the train operator in the brown stuff (if they were the ones who failed to change it when they should) just so that we can all be sure we're showing correct information on the rear end of a train. Of all the regular sources of information we give to customers, including front blinds, dot matrix displays, on-train announcements, peak-hour announcements, rather than take notice of all that, we find they are looking at the back of a train to find out where it's going. This is a back of a train that 9 stations out of 10 is seen as the train leaves the station - which makes it irrelevant to the person on the platform being left behind by the train. If you want to catch a train, make your way calmy, without running, to the platform, and wait for it there. You will be met with all the information about the arriving service you need. Roll-on S-stock, then we can all sleep soundly knowing our trains are showing people where they're going. Even if they're not even on the train. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Dec 15, 2009 11:08:37 GMT
This one rumbles on doesn't it? With the "circle" now requiring front blinds to be changed en route, as far as the backs are concerned we're back to "Which is more accurate (i.e. right more often)- a watch that loses 2 minutes a day or one that's stopped altogether?". In other words the least inaccurate rear blind is one left at its previous destination.
If Aspect's at UPM I presume he doesn't touch C stocks any more so his rulebook observations are theoretical only.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 18:23:17 GMT
My rule book observations are theoretical now in the sense that I only occasionally drive a C stock and when I do the correct destination is displayed on both ends of the train as it always was when we had them on a D stock. The rule is there in black and white. If it is considered acceptable to ignore it then, I see no reason not to also ignore, for example, a train that is tripped on a raised train stop, but where upon examination the signal concerned is now showing a green aspect, the t/op resets and proceeds without reporting it!!!
I'm quite happy for you to make an issue of a driver not setting the blinds correctly, it is part of their job. They do not need to be changed at a mid-point (despite the inference), only a terminus. As for the Circle Line's it would seem reasonable for the rear end of a Circle Line to be set to show the "Circle Line" unqualified panel!
My principle objection is to Westbound H&C trains showing "Barking" on the rear where the rear will be seen by plenty of customers boarding at Barking (bay and pl 6), Upton Park, Plaistow, Bromley-By-Bow, Bow Road, Mile End, Stepney Green (to a lesser extent), Whitechapel, Aldgate East, Moorgate, Farringdon and Baker Street. (I'm sure there are examples for the Eastbound too)
Like I say this "trend" seems to be spreading to the Metropolitan too !!
It's purely a matter of professionalism and pride in ones job and ones self.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 18:30:36 GMT
When I was at Uni, the shuttle buses to/from/around the campus had both front and rear destination blinds that could be changed simultaneously by pressing a button which operated electric motors at both the front and the rear display. I suppose this is a moot point now given the imminent replacement of the C stock, but I'm surprised that LU never put something like that into service. The problem with this for a C stock is you have to get the 50v electrical feed to the rear of the train and in a reliable enough fashion for the operator at the front to be sure the rear has set correctly. If it requires a cctv camera then this requires another feed. The problem with that is C stock trains are formed of 3 units coupled together. There is only a limited capacity for electrical feeds to be passed from one unit to the next which is done via studs on the coupler. My understanding is there is no spare studs for use on C stock. If it is then to be done using different frequencies on an existing stud it would have to not interfere with anything and have equipment to determine what frequency is being sent and where it should go. all rather problematic and then expensive I presume. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 18:42:35 GMT
A polite reminder:
2.9 Destination blinds and indicators
You must make sure:
• destination blinds and indicators are showing the correct destination throughout each journey
• the correct set number is shown at both ends of the train.
If your train is reformed and you are relieved before you can change the set number at the rear of the train, you must tell the relieving train operator to change the train number when changing ends.
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Post by 21146 on Dec 15, 2009 18:46:55 GMT
Incredible that this rule book requirement can be blithly ignored by C&H management (note: I'm not suggesting T/Ops walk to the rear mid-journey when trains are diverted/curtailed), whilst the "30 second PA message*" after halting in section is being instigated/policed with an almost religious zeal. So one lot of LU information has a value but another rates zero? Yes the S Stock will solve all this but here's betting the lettering on the train's external DMI/LED will be smaller than on the original C and D Stock blinds?
* = i.e. stating the blee**** obvious
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Post by citysig on Dec 15, 2009 19:08:52 GMT
Incredible that this rule book requirement can be blithly ignored by C&H management Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is being ignored, first and foremost, by the train operators, and given that aspect considers it to form part of being professional, then this makes a large proportion of C&H drivers unprofessional. I'll leave someone else to spread that word, because as I have already said umpteen times, I don't have an issue with it. As for C&H management, I think you'll find they have one or two more pressing items on the agenda before they police the fact that a train is still showing where it has been on the back. Especially at this fragile time of settling into a new timetable, with plenty of train operators displeased with the way the timetable treats them, I hardly think it would be good business sense to start wielding a big stick. If I hear of an incorrect platform description or front of train display, then I will chase the concerned parties on the matter. But I will not chase a train operator for not changing the rear of the train - unless the rear has become the front if you see what I mean. |
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Post by SE13 on Dec 16, 2009 9:35:21 GMT
If the blinds have to be changed on route, it would be almost impossible to have the rear blind correct all the way through the journey, and that would count for every single train on every single line.
I'm actually quite amused at the thought of a driver sprinting ¼ of a mile down a platform in peak hours to update the rear blind.......
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 16, 2009 10:21:14 GMT
As for C&H management, I think you'll find they have one or two more pressing items on the agenda before they police the fact that a train is still showing where it has been on the back. But there's obviously plenty of time in someone's diary to ensure staff continually pump out propaganda announcements telling us all that there's a good service, even when there isn't (but admitting as such would result in someone's "target" being missed)? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 11:17:47 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is being ignored, first and foremost, by the train operators, and given that aspect considers it to form part of being professional, then this makes a large proportion of C&H drivers unprofessional. My learned friend may very well think that, I could not possibly comment !! ;D ;D ;D But there's obviously plenty of time in someone's diary to ensure staff continually pump out propaganda announcements telling us all that there's a good service, even when there isn't (but admitting as such would result in someone's "target" being missed)? Absolutely !!! (and those announcements and the 30 second ones, are not a requirement of the rule book !!) |
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Post by citysig on Dec 16, 2009 11:46:18 GMT
I'm actually quite amused at the thought of a driver sprinting ¼ of a mile down a platform in peak hours to update the rear blind....... The problem is, even when it's their fault that something at the rear is not as it should be, the large majority do not even walk fast. |
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Post by plasmid on Dec 16, 2009 12:13:23 GMT
This rear blind rule is stupid. You don't need S Stock with the dual LED screens to solve this.
Quite simply all a driver would have to do is change the rear blind to "Circle Line" and that's it.
You can't ask a driver to leave the cab to go and change a blind in another cab during the journey simply because the blind will become wrong at some point in the journey.
If this is a rule then change it for the facts of the destination changing during the journey and the fact that managerial won't enforce drivers to follow this rule.
What's a rule if it's not being followed after all?
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 16, 2009 12:59:04 GMT
Come to think of it, who says it must be the driver who changes the back screen?
Is it not possible, say, for a member of station staff to enter the back cab and do the necessary few turns of a handle? Or are the keys required to get in a cab not kept at stations? No doubt some jobsworth would get his knickers in a twist about being told to do something a tiny bit outside his job description, too...
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Post by happybunny on Dec 16, 2009 13:10:38 GMT
See article on the Standard's website: www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23784579-a-new-improved-circle-line-its-rubbish-say-delayed-passengers.doBut I like the fact that someone from Brussels has even picked up on the fact that the idiots at the Standard have got the details of the new service completely wrong. The standard write : Circle line trains now start in Hammersmith, run along the Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road then do a clockwise lap of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They then do the journey anti-clockwise. The guy comments: "Trains start in Hammersmith, run along the Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road then do a clockwise lap of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They then do the journey anti-clockwise". Are you sure you've got that right? How can they can get back to Hammersmith going clockwise? - Philip, Brussels, Belgium Quality reporting as usual from the ES |
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Post by plasmid on Dec 16, 2009 13:28:28 GMT
Evening Standard articles are useless s***.
It's so typical of the media to get information wrong, make someone (person or a company) look bad and in this case gather reports from people on how useless the service is during a signal failure.
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Post by citysig on Dec 16, 2009 14:21:40 GMT
Given they probably wrote that story months ago in readiness for the start of the timetable (because, let's face it, there was always going to be a negative story in the ES about the new service) you would have though they'd have read it and re-read it and checked to make sure everything was just so.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 17:12:26 GMT
Come to think of it, who says it must be the driver who changes the back screen? Is it not possible, say, for a member of station staff to enter the back cab and do the necessary few turns of a handle? Or are the keys required to get in a cab not kept at stations? No doubt some jobsworth would get his knickers in a twist about being told to do something a tiny bit outside his job description, too... When we have a problem with white lights on the rear, we ask either a DMT or Train Technician to correct it. I wouldn't dream of asking a member of station staff to do so as they are not familiar with the layout of the cab switches and equipment. |
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Post by North End on Dec 16, 2009 19:20:47 GMT
Come to think of it, who says it must be the driver who changes the back screen? Is it not possible, say, for a member of station staff to enter the back cab and do the necessary few turns of a handle? Or are the keys required to get in a cab not kept at stations? No doubt some jobsworth would get his knickers in a twist about being told to do something a tiny bit outside his job description, too... 1) Station staff are not trained to operate cab equipment. 2) If staff are entering an unoccupied cab, arrangements need to be made to ensure that the staff member is not overcarried (which could result in a station staffing level falling below minimum legally required numbers), or more importantly that he has some protection in place to ensure the train won't move as he enters or leaves the cab via a side door or 'M' door. Yes it could be done, but it would take effort and time, the latter being something LU claims to value. I tend to agree with MetControl on this - correct information on the rear blind is a "nice to have", but in the grand scheme of things it's really not essential at all. I just don't think it's something which really affects passengers at all. |
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For those of you still eager to actually ride on the same train from High Street Kensington to Baker Street, King's Cross, Liverpool Street and beyond- there are still a few through trains!
;D
