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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2009 11:32:18 GMT
Me again with another annoying question. As there were more '58 trailers than were needed for the Bakerloo would I be right in thinking that the balance went to the Northern? If so, which ones? Many thanks (again).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 3, 2009 11:43:27 GMT
Some did work on the northern, some with the 1949 UNDMS, however, all were eventually allocated to the bakerloo. I think this was pretty swiftly done, however I don't have books with me to check it.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 3, 2009 12:18:12 GMT
Yes, correct. The converted trailers started on both the Northern and Bakerloo, but all were transfered to the Bakerloo by the 1950s. As you say, they were placed in the 3 car units which were normally made up of DM-ST-DM but some when into new UNDM-ST-DM sets. As there were more available than required, some made their way into four car units, being formed DM-ST-NDM-DM.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2009 20:20:57 GMT
So it was theoretically possible for two '58 trailers to run in a seven car then! Does anyone have a picture of a set as such? I don't s'pose anyone has a list of set formations with '58 trailers in them? Thanks.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 4, 2009 21:07:43 GMT
There is a picture in the tube stock file 1933-59 of a four car set at Dollis Hill with a '58 trailer.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2009 22:12:42 GMT
I have a few pictures of four-car sets with them but a seven-car set with two? Now there's something to model!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 6:42:20 GMT
To be really pedantic, "58 trailers" should not have an apostrophe in front of it, as it's not an abbreviation of 1958. There were 58 Standard Stock trailers converted to work with the 38TS. Staff started referring to them as "the 58 trailers" and the name stuck.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on May 6, 2009 21:58:17 GMT
Dredging back to the dim & distant past,I'm sure I only saw Standard trailers in 3car units and they all had UNDMs in the middle.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 7, 2009 18:16:59 GMT
Just found this: 'Tube Trains Under London', '77 edition, plate 62 on page 64; "4-car 1938 Tube Stock train on the Bakerloo with a converted trailer in the make-up".
Its interesting that a three car formation could and has been formed '49-'27-'38
Is it possible that as withdrawls started the 4 car units had their trailer replaced first? Would make sense since there were less of those units to start with. However maybe it happened before?
The subject of '35/'38/'49/'27 formations over time are worthy of a book in themselves!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on May 7, 2009 19:41:36 GMT
AFAIK units with standard trailers and units with 49TS were scrapped first.Bit like the Routemasters the first ones to go were the ones with non standard electrics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 23:35:31 GMT
The "58 Trailers" were converted between 04.07.38 (the first was 70540) and 06.02.39 (the last was 70551). They do not appear to be done in any particular order and were renumbered in the series 70513 - 70570.
Apart from 70539, all first saw service with 1938 Tube Stock on the Northern. 70539 was converted 16.01.39 and by-passed the Northern.
The first two cars to be transferred from the Northern to the Bakerloo were 70525 and 70543 on 13.03.39.
One 58T, 70560, was transferred from the Northern to the "Met" on 13.09.39, to work in a four-car unit on the Stanmore - Wembley Park shuttle, before it became absorbed into the Bakerloo from 20.11.39.
The last transfer from the Northern to the Bakerloo was 70534 on 09.08.41. This was the last "58 Trailer" to run in service on the Bakerloo, surviving all the others by several months. It was scrapped 24.07.74 (date Neasden to Birds Long Marston).
Bearing in mind that the Bakerloo then operated only 6-car trains until after WW2, it would have been very possible for a 6-car train to have a 58T in each 3-car unit.
After the early-1950s conversions and the arrival of the 1949 Tube Stock, the Bakerloo fleet was 54x7-car trains for a 47-train service. The 58Ts were normally in three-car units, but with only 54 of them, four four-car units also had them, so again it was possible for a full-length train to have two 58Ts, although much less likely than before 1946.
Veering off the subject a bit, but also of interest, is that the 18 ex-streamlined motor cars of 1935 Stock, converted to trailers in 1950-51, all went to the Northern, but in the early 1970s, six of them (012480 - 012485) did a few years on the Bakerloo until withdrawal, the last being 012482, scrapped 23.03.76.
One, however, survived longer on the Northern, being 012489, and was finally scrapped (the last of its type) on 16.02.77.
012479 is also recorded as being transferred from the Northern to the Piccadilly on 27.04.73 but was scrapped 31.01.74. I am not convinced that it carried passengers on the Picc for that short period - unless you know different .........
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2009 17:58:52 GMT
Superb feedback as always guys. Thank you. All I have to do now is find a way modelling a 58 trailer and a rebuilt streamliner. It isn't as easy as I had hoped. The 58 trailer can be modelled with a Radley 1927 trailer but the issue is the ride height compared to EFE. As for the rebuilt streamliners, that is another story......
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metman
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Post by metman on May 14, 2009 21:55:54 GMT
For the rebuilt streamliners I think, you would either have to get an EFE trailer and shuffle the window pillars from 4 to 3 at each seat bay end, or actually rebuild a streamliner!  |
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Post by astock5000 on May 14, 2009 22:24:17 GMT
Veering off the subject a bit, but also of interest, is that the 18 ex-streamlined motor cars of 1935 Stock, converted to trailers in 1950-51, all went to the Northern, but in the early 1970s, six of them (012480 - 012485) did a few years on the Bakerloo until withdrawal, the last being 012482, scrapped 23.03.76. Were the rebuilt 35TS cars used in 3 or 4-car sets (or both)? |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on May 14, 2009 23:03:13 GMT
From 1957 till scrapping the ex 35TS streamlined motor cars operated the Ongar shuttle there were 8 of them with a standard trailer in the middle,their nickname at Hainault was "Sputniks".
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metman
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Post by metman on May 15, 2009 7:26:20 GMT
Do you not mean the flat fronted cars? There were 6 of these that were converted to shuttle units to run in 2 car sets. These units had their wedgelock couplers removed and replaced by ward couplers and received air hoses on their fronts. Latterly they had a 1927 trailer added to the units. In addition to working on the Central Line shuttles the 35ts flat fronts worked on the Aldwych shuttle, where one hit the buffers at Aldwych and had to be rebuilt! One set of 35ts was withdrawn for engineering trials, and a three car 1938 unit replaced it at Ongar.
When the 1962 stock came on board, the 35ts was painted silver to match its new shedmates.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 9:43:28 GMT
It was indeed the "flat-fronted" DM cars that worked on the Central Line shuttles (and the Picc Line's Aldwych shuttle 1954-57).
They were painted 'silver' as follows:
Unit 09 - 11/63
Unit 10 - 8/63
Unit 11 - 5/65
The ex-streamlined motor cars converted to trailers were formed in three-car units (DM-T-UNDM) once the 1949 programme had been completed in 1953. Interestingly, these three-car (sort of hybrid!) units comprised a 1938 DM car 11xxx, the 1935 T and either a 1938 UNDM (ex-9-car NDM conversion) or a 1949 UNDM.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 13:19:57 GMT
Further to my note on 12 May, "They do not appear to be done in any particular order and were renumbered in the series 70513 - 70570", thinking about this a little more, although they weren't converted in numerical order, they probably "were" converted in an order decided by the CME - i.e. in the order due for overhaul or repaint, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 10:05:15 GMT
At the risk of bumping (sorry) I have now found a picture of a seven-car set of Bakerloo 1938 stock with two 58 trailers in it's consist. The picture is in the 1957 Ian Allan ABC for London Transport Railways on page 56 and depicts the set heading south from Watford Junction next to Bushey water troughs. Unfortunately a bridge pillar prevents identifying the inner vehicle of the three car half as a DM or NDM (UNDM). At least it proves the theory.
MORE PROOF! In the 1959 Ian Allan ABC for London Transport Railways the frontispiece is a picture of four trains at Wembley Park. Two P stock 6-car sets and two 1938 ts sets. The left hand one has two 58 trailers in it. There is also a picture in the main body of the book of a 7-car 38 ts set with the 58 trailer in the four-car portion. Most 58 trailers on the Bakerloo ran in the three-car part. With some of the other stock formations that have been detailed on other threads it is clear that the late Cyril Freezer was right when he state that there was 'a prototype for everything'!
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