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Post by ducatisti on Apr 16, 2009 12:27:42 GMT
"Like most visitors to London, Klaus Matzka and his teenage son Loris took several photographs of some of the city's sights, including the famous red double-decker buses. More unusually perhaps, they also took pictures of the Vauxhall bus station, which Matzka regards as "modern sculpture". But the tourists have said they had to return home to Vienna without their holiday pictures after two policemen forced them to delete the photographs from their cameras in the name of preventing terrorism. Matkza, a 69-year-old retired television cameraman with a taste for modern architecture, was told that photographing anything to do with transport was "strictly forbidden". The policemen also recorded the pair's details, including passport numbers and hotel addresses." www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/16/police-delete-tourist-photosI'm getting a bit fed up with this... Mike |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 13:21:29 GMT
I may only be speaking for myself here, but I am fairly confident I am not, have we not had enough threads on photography the past few months? I would guess the admins are getting pretty fed up of locking threads and re-directing people on the same subjects on almost a weekly basis! (admins, feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
For this sort of thing, may I suggest we have a "media board" for discussion of magazine and newspaper articles, for opinions, and keep the photography stuff in the site announcements area?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 16, 2009 14:03:56 GMT
IMO this thread is sufficiently different not to need locking. There hasn't been any discussion or threads recently about photographs being deleted from cameras at the behest of any agency. I would suggest that anyone who contributes remembers Rule 3, before posting. Personally speaking, I agree utterly with ducatisti; the reaction of the police seems more heavy-handed than necessary. Of course, there may well be another side to the story.  |
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Post by johnb on Apr 16, 2009 16:20:13 GMT
I quite liked someone's suggestion in the Guardian comments, of getting credit-card sized printed with the actual, legal position on photography in public places so you can show them to any authority figure who's ill-acquainted with the roles ;-)
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 16, 2009 18:43:43 GMT
And of course though the police can arrest you they have NO legal power to demand you delete any pics of anything: I believe there's even a limit on what you're obliged to show them, i.e only of the sites they stopped you for.
But isn't it getting a ridiculous mess??
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 16, 2009 19:01:29 GMT
And of course though the police can arrest you they have NO legal power to demand you delete any pics of anything I've seen this put well elsewhere. If you have taken pictures of something you shouldn't have, the photos are the evidence of your wrongdoing. If you have not taken pictures of something you shouldn't have, there is no reason for you to delete the photos. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 16, 2009 19:07:38 GMT
Of course, a small thing like the law will not get in the way of a bobby or suchlike who's on a power trip.
Indeed, I was told not so long ago that "you ought to be careful taking photographs, I'll let you off now but if a policeman see you he might stop you, you shouldn't take photos on a station"... by a litterpicker!
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Apr 16, 2009 21:59:12 GMT
In the 70s,one of the Railway Magazines (perhaps Railway World) ran an article about travelling behind the Iron Curtain,particularly Poland,where there was,at that time,an awful lot of steam traction in everyday use.
It made very clear that these communist countries were not as liberal and open as we in the West and pointed out that photgraphy of "sensitive" subjects,such as bridges,railway installations,airports and anything to do with the Police or Military,were usually strictly forbidden,on pain of arrest and confiscation,and that even when taking pictures of trains,permission HAD to be obtained in advance.
How we gasped!
If only we'd known.
But then,as the wise man said,it's doing what we're told as keeps us free.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 17, 2009 0:39:44 GMT
I may only be speaking for myself here, but I am fairly confident I am not, have we not had enough threads on photography the past few months? I would guess the admins are getting pretty fed up of locking threads and re-directing people on the same subjects on almost a weekly basis! (admins, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) Ok then, I would suggest you are wrong! The issue of photography on stations has been in the spotlight more so since 7/7 - that was nearly 4 years ago now. If we've had one thread a month I'd be very surprised (that'd be almost 48 threads and there's never been that many on the subject). Believe me, if the forum staff felt there was a particular issue regarding a particular subject, we'd say so  For this sort of thing, may I suggest we have a "media board" for discussion of magazine and newspaper articles, for opinions, and keep the photography stuff in the site announcements area? You can make the suggestion, but given that we already have a main board plus two sub boards dedicated to the subject of photography, we are extremely unlikely to sanction anything more associated with the subject. On top of that, only forum staff can start threads in the 'Forum and Site Announcements' area! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2009 0:53:56 GMT
My recollection is that numerous persons taking photographs of buses around Vauxhall bus station have been the subject of detailed equiries, I was told this is because a building on the opposite corner to the bus station is the headquaters of MI5 and all the surrounding area is saturated with cctv watching what is going on outside.
As to police having any power to insist phtographs be deleted, I am not aware (but open to correction) of such a power without a court order. But possibly able to dupe those believing they do have such a power ??
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Post by upfast on Apr 17, 2009 2:12:52 GMT
That building at Vauxhall is home to the SIS (MI6), it would be ironic if they wanted those photos deleted as it has been in a James Bond film!
And this is making us safer - remember that!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2009 4:17:22 GMT
Sadly this sort of this thing is likely to increase drastically in the forthcoming months, given the Home Office's current poster campaign which encourages people to report suspicious activity including taking photos I am also concerned that this will lead to 'vigilante' style activity as people decide to take the law into their own hands.
I have to be extremely careful what I say and be a bit cryptic but partner agencies I believe are having to show a training film that is aimed at raising awareness but is likely to lead to increased numbers of these events, and increased (and ill informed) comments from all areas of staff.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Apr 17, 2009 7:54:40 GMT
Its all a bit odd isnt it. Terrorism laws are there ostensibly and ultimately to protect us and our way of life from people who seek to change it. Yet slowly but surely, what we do, how we do it, and what actions we must answer to are becoming more and more resisted, altered and restricted. And yet very few people seem to be standing together to fight it. Every paper prints a story now and again; no two papers say 'were against this together'.
Blah blah blah, Orwell was right, blah blah
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Apr 17, 2009 9:36:38 GMT
There was a lengthy editorial in Railway Magazine this month on this very subject, mainly of people being prevented filming trains at York Station of all places!
a pal of mine, a professional photographer, ex cop, was taking pics in the Outlet Centre at Ashford (Kent) a while back and was stopped by a security guard who demanded he stop taking pics and destroy the film inside. My friend told him he would stop taking pics as requested as it was private property, but the film and the camera was his personal property and no-one had the right to tell him to destroy the film.
As it happens, he was on a photo shoot for the said designer centre and got a lot of money for not taking any photos!
This country has gone absolutely bananas about photos, including the new law which prevents the public taking pictures of police officers. have any of the photographers who took pics of the alleged police "misdemeanours" at the G20 protests been arrested? I don't think so. Yet another badly drafted law which protects nobody.
Remember, the camera and film are YOURS. DO NOT let anyone destroy film or your freedom to take pictures. Rant over.
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 17, 2009 10:53:26 GMT
Its all a bit odd isnt it. Terrorism laws are there ostensibly and ultimately to protect us and our way of life from people who seek to change it. Yet slowly but surely, what we do, how we do it, and what actions we must answer to are becoming more and more resisted, altered and restricted. And yet very few people seem to be standing together to fight it. Every paper prints a story now and again; no two papers say 'were against this together'. Blah blah blah, Orwell was right, blah blah Quite right. The Government are managing quite happily to do the terrorists job for them. Bin Laden et al need not lift a finger - the Government are busy creating fear and restricting our liberties themselves. |
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Post by 21146 on Apr 17, 2009 17:08:09 GMT
This made ITV London News tonight. The incident was at Walthamstow Central, the officers were PCSOs and the tourists were transport enthusiasts who had to delete all the bus, Tube and train photos they'd taken whilst in London.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Apr 17, 2009 17:53:19 GMT
Saw that aswell. Ammusing that a policeman stopped the camera crew whilst filming the artical to tell them they werent allowed to film. Perhaps now is the time somebody printed t-shirts with the relavent law written on them in bold type?
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Post by Chris W on Apr 17, 2009 22:30:30 GMT
Oh dear - not the best of days for the Met Police TodayPhotorights asks: Can police or PCSO's insist I delete my images?ANSWER - No they have no legal authority to do this. Only a court may order deletion of images.Phooto.co.uk states on its website: Forcible deletion or removal of images is an assault.Some useful pointers: www.phooto.co.uk/rights.shtmlwww.urban75.org/photos/photographers-rights-and-the-law.html#deletingbluenoxid.co.uk/photolaw.htmlMy analogy of police/PCSOs deleting images... Imagine a suspected terrorist safe house being found and raided. Now imagine the first thing that PC Clot does (not the first time such a term has been used this week) with any computers/cameras... he deletes/destroys the evidence!If these press reports are accurate, the officer(s) concerned have ignored their own guidance - see page 19 of this documentIf officers reasonably suspect that photographs are being taken as part of hostile terrorist reconnaissance, a search under section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000 or an arrest should be considered. Film and memory cards may be seized as part of the search, but officers do not have a legal power to delete images or destroy film. Although images may be viewed as part of a search, to preserve evidence when cameras or other devices are seized, officers should not normally attempt to examine them. Cameras and other devices should be left in the state they were found and forwarded to appropriately trained staff for forensic examination. The person being searched should never be asked or allowed to turn the device on or off because of the danger of evidence being lost or damaged.Last Wednesday in The Times (page 3 of edition 69604), Andy Hayman (former Assistant Commissioner Special Operation at the Met Police) stated with reference to the G20 policing operation " ... the Commissioner must ask serious questions about the style of policing. If left unchecked we have a more violent crowd in uniform than the crowd demonstrating". Admittedly this quotation does not refer to the probable illegal deletion of a tourists innocent photos, however it does indicate that Police may be acting outside of the laws they are meant to enforce. Those who fall in the line of duty must be honoured, however MET PC Clot does not help himself sometimes... to be honest there are times when I am ashamed to admit that my father served for 28 years in the Met |
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Apr 18, 2009 9:26:33 GMT
Welcome to the REAL world of policing. Having followed a motoring forum www.pepipoo.co.uk for a while, nothing now surprises me as to how the police and the authorities abuse their power. My father was a cop; my brother was; his wife is a serving cop, so I'm not anti-police per se, I'm anti misuse of the police to spy on everyone all time time and abuse the powers they have in the name of anti-terrorism. Those that argue that CCTV "stops crime", it doesn't. It might help detect crime as it happens and catch those who commit it, whichever side they are on, including the police! Who knows, the use of CCTV may even bring about a bit more reasonable behaviour in the police service!! I read recently that the number of successful prosecutions brought asbout via CCTV is about 1.007%, and that for the most spied-upon nation in the world. surely a good argument for the cessation of CCTVs and an inquiry into the cost effectivenss of them in the fight on crime. I haven't yet heard of anyone on the G20 demo being charged with taking photos of police, which by the way is now illegal! Why? My brother appeared on BBC1 news earlier this week in an interview about the police tactics as he used to train officers in riot duties back in the 1980's. He is appalled by the way officers behave now and is glad to have retired from the force. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2009 10:14:05 GMT
Going slightly off topic this whole thing becomes worst when the rules on stop and account and stop and search changed last October. If these people had been made to stop and account for their presence then they would not even had their details recorded on a form. If anyone is stopped and made to account they can no go online and give some feedback!! www.apa.police.uk/APA/Features/Police+Stops/Stop+and+Account.htmStrangely if you are stopped and searched then there is no feedback option, wonder why? On a serious point to remind anyone who has dealings with the police and is unhappy about the way they are treated then they should look for the force number (collar number) of the officer concerned and then lodge a complaint from then on. As happened with one of the officers this week if their force number cannot be seen then this is taken seriously and some form of action will happen to the officer as a result, it certainly happens with my force, but of course I do not speak on behalf of them or any other force. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2009 10:23:57 GMT
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Post by Chris W on Apr 18, 2009 11:10:38 GMT
There are always two sides and one or two uniformed thugs or egotistical tyrants will always grab the headlines... A Police officer posting under the name MegaCity4 made an incisive comment on the very Guardian report that started this thread (found here): " Firstly, I and many of my colleagues are unsettled by a lot of the new legislation spouting out from the government, and would be ashamed to use it. The police applying this type of legislation incorrectly and overzealously are probably fresh out of Hendon and finding their feet. Unfortunately it makes the rest of us look like tw*ts.
Secondly, please believe that the majority of police are not thugs. In seven years service I have never hit, CS'd, batoned etc. anyone. The only type of force I have ever used has been applying handcuffs when arresting people. The people I work with are all good people doing their job for the right reasons. I appreciate there are exceptions, but don't forget there are about 36000 officers in the MET" |
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Post by maxtube on Apr 18, 2009 18:14:00 GMT
Now this is why I use non-rewritable discs in my camcorder! If the police asked me to destroy the disc, I would say that it had once-in-a-lifetime footage on as well as telling them that they can only tell me to in a court order! I'd laugh if somone argued with PC Clot about asking them to delete images:
'Can you delete those images sir?'
'Of course not! You can only ask me to under a court order! Don't bother me again or I will report you to the police!' ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 0:48:57 GMT
I do have to wonder if the police involved are aware that any image deleted from a memory card, which most camera's need to take large numbers of photos, can be easily retrieved with a recovery program. I accidentally deleted some images once and brought a program that allowed me to retrieve them. I wasn't only able to retrieve those photos but ones I had deleted ages ago!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:43:05 GMT
My recollection is that numerous persons taking photographs of buses around Vauxhall bus station have been the subject of detailed equiries, I was told this is because a building on the opposite corner to the bus station is the headquaters of MI5 and all the surrounding area is saturated with cctv watching what is going on outside. Although I have been stopped several times around London, I have taken photos at and around Vauxhall bus station before and never had any problem. Incidentally, when I have been stopped more often than not the officer's have been friendly and I felt they were just following orders and would rather have been doing real work too. I haven't yet heard of anyone on the G20 demo being charged with taking photos of police, which by the way is now illegal! Why? Because just taking photos of the police it is not actually illegal. It is only an offence where the photos would be useful in the preparation or committing of a terrorist attack, and you cannot provide a reasonable excuse for taking the photos. It is a stupidly vague law so there is value in the media exaggerating the extremities to which it can be used. Someone could abuse their power and stop and arrested you just for doing it under this law, even though the charge would not stand up in court. So clearly it is a problem. But the problem with them always claiming that is that people not actually understanding the law. Probably including the police too! |
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