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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 12:32:29 GMT
Having just acquired an old Harrow Models F stock single-ended DM on the rocky road to ruin that is ebay I wonder if anyone can enlighten me about a couple of things. Did the sets remain 'fixed' or was shunting of vehicles between sets carried out on a regular basis? Does anyone know the numbers of the vehicles used on the farewell tour? Finally, is this the coolest looking stock that LT ever had?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 2, 2009 12:50:48 GMT
Finally, is this the coolest looking stock that LT ever had? A close tie with the 1920 Cammell Laird TS IMO!. |
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 8, 2009 17:35:54 GMT
Having just acquired an old Harrow Models F stock single-ended DM on the rocky road to ruin that is ebay I wonder if anyone can enlighten me about a couple of things. Did the sets remain 'fixed' or was shunting of vehicles between sets carried out on a regular basis? Does anyone know the numbers of the vehicles used on the farewell tour? Finally, is this the coolest looking stock that LT ever had? The trains were not in fixed units. Although they were normally supposed to operate in 8-car sets, they sometimes ran in 7-car formations on the District. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 23:01:39 GMT
IIRC, As built they worked as 5 (M-T-T-T-M) + 3 car (CT-T-M) sets (coupled as required to form 8-car trains).
A question for anybody into District rolling stock policy: why, after the F stock, was there a reversion to pre (first) war look-a-like/ compatible designs for the G (and subsequent) stock?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 9, 2009 19:36:38 GMT
The regression may have been due to the fact that the new G and then K motor cars had to work with the older B and C/D/E stock trailers and motor cars which bar the E stock had the clerestory. The F stock was always going to be separate so it could look different. Just a thought.....
The E stock looked dreadful too!
The F stock was car stock so some movement around took place.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 19:36:51 GMT
'London Underground Train File. 1933-1959' by Brian Hardy has a picture of a 7-car (captioned as an 8-car) formed M-T-T+M-T-T-M. When built they did work 5+3 as above but ended up mostly working 4+4 after transfer to the MET in the early fifties. The East London line had dedicated 4 car sets from what I can gather. There have been numerous questions as to which cars were purely ELL vehicles but no-one seems to know. Shame as it is the sort of banal anorak stuff that us modellers live on!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 20:29:30 GMT
The regression may have been due to the fact that the new G and then K motor cars had to work with the older B and C/D/E stock trailers and motor cars which bar the E stock had the clerestory. The F stock was always going to be separate so it could look different. Just a thought..... Yes... but that doesn't explain why... another way of putting it is why wasn't the G and subsequent stock built on the F stock pattern (and to work with it)? (rather than the B-E stock pattern) |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 10, 2009 0:09:02 GMT
Because the F stock was built with cheap government money after WW1. It was built to a high spec because of this. The District cashed in on this money, but could never repeat this order with further stock. The motors and current consumption were far greater than were exepected and I doubt a repeat order would have been made. We must remember the F stock was fitted with GE220 motors and the A/B/C/D/E/G stock had GE69 motors at first. The wooden bodied B stock were wearing very poorly by 1920 so the decision was made to convert the B stock motor cars to trailers (as they had steel underframes) and a new batch of motor cars would be built to run with them. This turned out to be 50 cars of G stock and then 101 cars of K stock. The K1 type bogies on the B stock (trailers) were also falling apart so the new K2 bogie was fitted to the new converted B stock trailers known as H stock. This is why I believe the clerestory roof was returned. I'm sure TP could add to this as he is writing about it in the District Electric Stock in U News. Here's your que.....  |
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 10, 2009 20:43:34 GMT
On cue: Metman, you are basically correct. More details will follow in my DR series. Article 2 was published in the April UN.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 17:59:16 GMT
I know it has been asked before but my Harrow Models single-ended DM is nearly ready for the paint shop and I need a ELL number for it. Either that or one end of the farewell tour (which I believe was a four-car so probably one of the ELL sets anyway). Someone, somewhere, must have a definitive list! Thanks.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 21, 2009 23:03:12 GMT
Yes please, my next train is F stock, after my CO/CP stock! Help please......
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 22, 2009 6:47:25 GMT
Yes please, my next train is F stock, after my CO/CP stock! Help please...... I do not believe a definitive list has survived. The only photo of F Stock on the ELL I have ever seen with enough detail to show the car number is 4632. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 13:10:19 GMT
Thank you. The vehicle I am building is a single-ended DM so that will do nicely. Tubeprune strikes again. Us modellers would be lost without you! A four car set took part in the MET 150 parade in 1963. Has the formation of that set survived? Thanks again.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 22, 2009 13:24:43 GMT
I do not believe a definitive list has survived. The only photo of F Stock on the ELL I have ever seen with enough detail to show the car number is 4632. Developing further from that, my 1950 Met. Instructions for F stock comment on the numbering thus: 46 ... (even) 'A' end double equipped 46 ... (odd) 'D' end double equipped 46 ... (even) 'A' end single equipped 46 ... (odd) 'D' end single equipped 8 ... and 85 ... trailers. (I think I've posted this list before) - so from 4632 we can work out that it was an 'A' end car - and that is recorded as a conversion to a single equipped car on 2/12/39. Unfortunately all the web-searchable photos seem to be of F stock pre-renumbering! A four car set took part in the MET 150 parade in 1963. Has the formation of that set survived? Thanks again. I've unearthed my copy of TC supplement 19/63 which details the parade on the 23/5 and the rehearsal in 19/5 and unfortunately all it details is 5. 'F' stock - 4 cars (motor car at each end). As I was -10 in 1963 I can't help further: I wonder if anyone has any pictures? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 13:33:28 GMT
I have gone through the info that I have and come to the conclusion that, after the 1950 F stock rebuilding programme, 4632 was a west facing single ended DM. The even numbered ones (4620-4642) were all single ended ex control trailers (4632 being the only wartime F stock casualty). The odd ones (4591-4617) were rebuilt double enders with the rainstrip above the rear window etc.. The exception was 4618 which, as a former double ended DM, was the only west facing single ender to have the rainstrip above the rear window. In case anyone asks, my anorak is at the cleaners......
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 22, 2009 13:38:26 GMT
4636 was disposed of in April '41, not 4632.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 13:49:07 GMT
Yes it was 4636. Sorry, my myopic old eyes reading around corners again! Does anyone have a list of the withdrawal dates of the individual vehicles? As the ELL sets last ran three months after the end of their use on the MET maybe this would provide a clue? Yes, I do need to go out and buy some more straws to clutch at....... Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 16:17:52 GMT
Glyn,
Please PM me and I'll see what I can do.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2009 17:15:41 GMT
I have now ordered the other three vehicles to make up the four car set from Phil Radley and I have another question for you. Did the former double ended DMs have the rectangular buffing pads on both ends or were they removed (or never even fitted) to the end that the driving equipment was removed. I am on about the pads that were designed to stop damage on impact with conventional RCH buffing gear as opposed to the central pad above the coupling.
There is also a picture I have in two seperate publications that shows a single ended DM (ex control trailer) No 4640 which has one of these pads under the drivers side, not the other side!. Oh, the perils of modelling F stock!
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2009 19:04:20 GMT
I have had a look through my collection of 90+ F Stock photos. I can confirm that each type of driving motor car .....
* Double-equipped cars
* Single-equipped cars
* Single-equipped cars ex-CTs
..... all had the 'pads'. As for 4640, this must have been a one-off - perhaps removed for some reason in the depot and never got put back?
In all my photos, there is just one (taken late-1950s at Neasden) which shows the inner end of a double-equipped DM with panels over where the oval cab windoes used to be - and it does have pads! I can only assume that they did have them and kept them.
The 3 types of DM could be recognised by (in later days) -
Double-equipped DM cars, of course, had the guard's handworked door at the trailing end and had a rainstrip over it on the roof.
Single-equipped DM cars (ex-double-equipped DMs) has the door removed at the trailing end and a normal passenger widdow was inserted. However, this was non-opening and retained the rainstrip over the end non-opening window.
Single-equipped DM cars converted from CTs never had a door at the trailing end and therefore had a normal window with opening quarter light and, of course, no rainstrip.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2009 20:02:04 GMT
Are you saying that that the unused cab windows on the former double ended DM had been plated over? What was the number of the DM this was this on or is it not identified in the picture? Just when you think you have covered your options on F stock....
I rebuilt the trailing end on my single ended DM to represent a rebuilt double ended one with the extra rainstrip over the rear window on which I also removed the opening toplight. I then found a picture of the railtour that ran in 1960 only to find that the single ended DM was a former control trailer! Some you lose...
The shot of 4640 is quite a well known one. It appears in the 1950 Ian Allan ABC (part two) and also in the Ian Huntley London Transport Surface Stock Planbook. Up until I spotted the single buffing pad I thought the only remarkable thing about the picture was the size of the 'OLYMPIA' destination board. It's massive! The jumper cables under the drivers side are tucked into the cab footsteps so it could be about to be coupled to another four car. The picture appears to pre-date the stocks last rebuild as the sliding doors are of the earlier pattern. As I said before, my anorak is still at the cleaners!
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2009 17:49:31 GMT
One further question. What were used as barrier vehicles when the F stock was towed away for scrap? Thanks.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on May 31, 2009 16:00:11 GMT
Somewhere in my collection I've got the official brochure for the Met 100 celebrations. I'll see if there's any denct pics in there.
For interest, I've also got a 1958 LT rule book, given to me by a former Met motorman many years ago.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2009 20:24:28 GMT
Thanks for that. By the way, there are a couple of pictures in the Ian Allan 1960 London Transport ABC that show the railtour. One is an overview of the four-car set while the other is a close up of one of the trailers, 8084. The next question is, would the ELL dedicated fleet be restricted to just the DMs or would the entire four-car set have to be modified? If the former is the case then would the trailers be used indescriminately? Thanks.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 31, 2009 20:38:43 GMT
The F stock was car stock, so it wasn't fixed in one unit like the P stock it ran along side. However, when it ran on the Met did it stay in block formations?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2009 22:41:31 GMT
So far so good. The single-ended DM (former CT) is ready for painting and the former double-ended DM is not far behind. The first of the trailers is ready for final assembly and the second has a rolling chassis. One further question I have is this. Did the inner ends of the driving vehicles and trailers have a handrail next to the central door on the ends or did they only have handrails in the outboard position?
This project, as with all of my other LT modelling projects, could not even have been started without the information that members have been kind enough to share with me on this site. Thank you all.
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 21, 2009 6:13:08 GMT
The inner ends had handrails on the outer corners like the driving ends but no handrail next to the communicating door. All ends had a tail lamp bracket! The oval windows were blanked off at guards positions to accommodate the door controls.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2009 8:45:05 GMT
Fantastic! Thank you. Was the tail lamp bracket in a similar position on all cars or did it vary like the whistle position on Q38 DMs (now there was a frustrating discovery.....Grrrr)?
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 23, 2009 7:40:23 GMT
At work now so pix not here but I'll have a look later.
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