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Post by ek583 on Mar 26, 2009 0:48:51 GMT
Hey guys, I was just checking my email earlier on in the evening when I received the weekly email from TFL with information regarding planned engineering works this weekend. For the Central line, it says on the email as something like "suspended between Liverpool Street and Leytonstone due to Network Rail Engineering Work on Sunday". Now I am a bit confused here. For the last few weekends there have been similar closures (Sundays only) on the Central line, which have been described by Tfl as track replacement work between Liverpool Street and Leytonstone. That's quite understandable. But from my limited knowledge, I can't think of any way of how Network Rail engineering work can affect the Central line, and even then on that section of the line. I'm totally confused! Help me out guys!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 26, 2009 2:23:42 GMT
NR are doing station modernisation works on Plats 5 & 8 which impinges on the Central plats.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 26, 2009 9:11:56 GMT
NR are doing station modernisation works on Plats 5 & 8 which impinges on the Central plats. Hmmm, so I take it that you are talking about Stratford here? If NR are doing station modernisation works, then couldn't the Central line have non-stopped the station if the remaining section of the line had no other works going on. Or is there some kind of a safety issue or something which means trains can't run through?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2009 14:47:02 GMT
Or is there some kind of a safety issue or something which means trains can't run through? Yes, exactly. Health and safety rules require that if works or equipment (including ladders) are to be used within a specified distance of the platform edge (I forget the distance .. is it 3meters ?) Then works may not be carried out whilst trains are operating. A greater distance allows trains to operate non stop whilst works take place.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 26, 2009 18:53:45 GMT
Or is there some kind of a safety issue or something which means trains can't run through? Yes, exactly. Health and safety rules require that if works or equipment (including ladders) are to be used within a specified distance of the platform edge (I forget the distance .. is it 3meters ?) Then works may not be carried out whilst trains are operating. A greater distance allows trains to operate non stop whilst works take place. Ok, so that means when Shepherd's Bush (Central line) was being refurbished, the work on the platforms were being carried out beyond that minimum distance away from the platform edge (in service hours)?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2009 19:59:46 GMT
There were metal barriers along the platform for the majority or the works.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2009 21:26:01 GMT
Yes, reversals at Liverpool Street are going to be fun... and I can confirm about the metal fencing along the platform at Sheppy Bush. At one time some of them had some sort of blue mesh attached to them, I guess to dispel the amount of dust getting into the tunnel. Not that it worked much.
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Post by stanmorek on Mar 26, 2009 22:23:52 GMT
In traffic hours work involving step ladders can be carried out 2m away from the platform edge. Light work is permitted up to 0.6m from the platform edge with a lookout. Other types of work can be performed when an approved barrier is erected with prior agreement with the GSM.
A piling rig was working during traffic hours when the platforms at Ruislip Manor were rebuilt in 2005.
The barrier at Shepherd's Bush was there to seal off the station from the track during traffic hours. I heard that Westfield insisted that Metronet, who were employed by LUL to provide infrastructure protection, were no longer required on site after the barriers went up.
It would also be there to stop drivers panicking into stopping their trains if they thought they were seeing contractors working dangerously near the platform edge.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 26, 2009 22:25:15 GMT
There were metal barriers along the platform for the majority or the works. Yes, reversals at Liverpool Street are going to be fun... and I can confirm about the metal fencing along the platform at Sheppy Bush. At one time some of them had some sort of blue mesh attached to them, I guess to dispel the amount of dust getting into the tunnel. Not that it worked much. Oh ok, thanks for that info guys! And on that note, with all trains reversing at Liverpool Street, what kind of service frequency have there been operating (over the last few weekends)? I mean surely a normal Sunday timetable couldn't have been operating? And another question if I may, in such a situation how do trains from the Hainault loop reverse west to east at Leytonstone? I'm sorry if I am asking too many questions. I'm just curious, that's all!
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Mar 26, 2009 22:42:53 GMT
I think at Leytonstone they reverse back onto the other branch - i.e. a train from Hainualt reverses in P2 back to Epping and ex-Epping reverses in P3 to go back to Hainualt - I'm sure ATO will be able to confirm or correct this.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 26, 2009 22:49:48 GMT
And another question if I may, in such a situation how do trains from the Hainault loop reverse west to east at Leytonstone? There is a wrong-road disc signal LES5757, which controls the route over the crossover 5808/5707 reverse (this is the crossover nearest Stratford/furthest from the platform). Trains come in from Hainault into either platform 1 or 2 then pull forward and come to a stand clear of the crossover, LES5757 will clear when the route is set to the EB, train goes into platform 3 to head off east again. And rich32 is right (I think), Epping reversers are in platform 2 via bang road starter LES5763 and crossover 5818/5717 reverse. I'm not sure if the services swap branches when reversing, can't see any reason why not - unless the TTO wants to keep services self-contained and working in the same pattern. EDIT: From a cursory look through the TTN pile, it seems that there is a desire to keep services self-contained, so I'm guessing that it is unlikely that reversers swap branches.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 27, 2009 15:10:49 GMT
Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for that mrfs42 and rich32 !
So I was thinking, from what I've seen during service disruptions and such before, that talking about the self-contained shuttles, trains will be running in the following pattern: 1. Epping-Leytonstone shuttles 2. Woodford/Hainault-Leytonstone shuttles 3. West Rusilip-White City shuttles 4. Ealing Broadway-Liverpool Street shuttles.
Is that how the service operates during this kind of a suspension?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 27, 2009 15:35:29 GMT
Yes, although I gather the plans are for West Ruislip - Liverpool St. shuttles, turning them short at White City would make the service too sparse east of White City. Likewise (I think) every other Leytonstone - Hainault shuttle is extended to Woodford. There will also be Leytonstone - Loughton shuttles (shades of the White City - Loughton shuttles in WTT 10 (15/4/52) which I was looking at the other day).
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Post by ek583 on Mar 27, 2009 18:38:29 GMT
Yes, although I gather the plans are for West Ruislip - Liverpool St. shuttles, turning them short at White City would make the service too sparse east of White City. Likewise (I think) every other Leytonstone - Hainault shuttle is extended to Woodford. There will also be Leytonstone - Loughton shuttles (shades of the White City - Loughton shuttles in WTT 10 (15/4/52) which I was looking at the other day). Ok, but then with all eastbound trains reversing at Liverpool Street, what is the maximum headway that can be achieved without trains blocking back?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 27, 2009 18:57:42 GMT
Erm.... I'm not sure off the top of my head, it used to be about 2½ minutes. (Well, that was the frequency before the extensions were built eastwards).
I think with this sort of service it is designed around 5 minute headways (not all trains would be in traffic) - however I think you can squeeze something like 2 - 2¼ minutes. I've not got my notes to hand (they're over the other side of the country), there may be a stephenk or a tubeprune along in a bit with more accurate figures. I'm only basing this on timetabled interstices, rather than getting out my pencil and abacus.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 28, 2009 23:45:34 GMT
Bear in mind that on these Sunday closures, every 3rd train is extended to reverse at Bethnal Green (empty). The service is not self contained between the Ruislip and Ealing branches.
I also cannot see why trains can't run in service to Bethnal Green.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 29, 2009 10:25:44 GMT
<large thunk as penny drops> Of course, we discussed Bethnal reversers *ages* ago (which I'd completely forgotten about)..... Ah. Hmmm. That means trains every 15 min which isn't a 'robust service'.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 29, 2009 10:43:27 GMT
<large thunk as penny drops> Of course, we discussed Bethnal reversers *ages* ago (which I'd completely forgotten about)..... Ah. Hmmm. That means trains every 15 min which isn't a 'robust service'. But with the two sidings at Liverpool St. and the crossover at Bethnal Green, I thought it could be better than 15 minutes! Why isn't that so?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 10:54:24 GMT
The service is 6tph West Ruislip - Liverpool St and 6tph Ealing Broadway - Liverpool St. With a 12tph service terminating at Liverpool St there is no slack to aid service recovery. So every 3rd train runs forward empty to Bethnal Green and return.
The lost sheep travelling who don't listen to announcements and stay on the train are all thrown off to aid efficent working.
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Post by ek583 on Mar 29, 2009 13:10:00 GMT
The service is 6tph West Ruislip - Liverpool St and 6tph Ealing Broadway - Liverpool St. With a 12tph service terminating at Liverpool St there is no slack to aid service recovery. So every 3rd train runs forward empty to Bethnal Green and return. The lost sheep travelling who don't listen to announcements and stay on the train are all thrown off to aid efficent working. Ok, so that'll mean 1 train in about every 5 minutes or so. That sounds pretty reasonable for a Sunday service. Although it means that if someone misses a train, they'll have to wait about 10 (?) minutes until the next train for the same branch arrives.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 29, 2009 14:14:43 GMT
My views on service recovery are probably best left unspoken, just hinted at - because you'll still get the dratted PAs - grr! ;D
As I commented upthread, trains reversing every 2½ minutes at Liverpool Street were an everyday event prior to 1946 [1]. Has technology really improved things so that the reversing frequency has now halved with speedier trains, calculated and guaranteed shorter overlaps?
I don't want to sound like an old timetabling crusty, but 60/2½ = 24tph and 60/5 = 12 => 12/3 = 4 : 12 - 4 = 9 so 9 tph reversing in the sidings at Liverpool Street does seem a slightly weedy effort by comparison!
[1] I do realise that there were more ways to reverse then rather than now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 14:45:55 GMT
... The lost sheep travelling who don't listen to announcements and stay on the train are all thrown off to aid efficent working. Which is all very well. Unless they happen to be stubborn and want to go to Redbridge, but refuse to get off. Well, you can either 1; go by bus, 2; walk or 3; go by police car, which would you prefer? Warning: Option 3 might not be via the most direct route.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 29, 2009 15:57:57 GMT
The lost sheep travelling who don't listen to announcements and stay on the train are all thrown off to aid efficent working. As said elsewhere, you cannot blame passengers for not listening to announcements. If certain staff and managers would stop putting out so much nonsense about how there's a good service lah lah lah, people would listen when there's a genuine need for one (eg "all change!").
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Post by 21146 on Mar 29, 2009 16:15:57 GMT
Regarding the District Line work, are all drivers trained on the Wimbledon Park shunt? (Something I never managed to perform between 1978 and 1992.)
Observed the move yesterday, alas modern LED displays on D Stock don't show in photos so I couldn't capture the rare "Wimbledon Park" destination.
The pre-refurb roller blinds were thus preferable to me, but of course never included this station. At least passengers could read what it said on the day, which it is what the LEDs were designed for.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 16:26:37 GMT
Regarding the District Line work, are all drivers trained on the Wimbledon Park shunt? (Something I never managed to perform between 1978 and 1992.) We all see it on audio visual on joining the line. but I don't know anyone who has actually done the shunt
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Post by setttt on Mar 30, 2009 0:28:58 GMT
I managed to do it while on road training but alas missed out on it this weekend.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 30, 2009 13:57:03 GMT
To expand on what Jim said (and assist in the Green line taking over a Red line thread ;D ;D), all drivers are trained on all moves on a line when they do their road training. This may be done via hiking (walking through moves), audio visual tools (ie, computer simulation or DVD), printed material, Line Supplement or actually working a train over the move - knowledge is then confirmed by regular Q&A sessions throughout the road training period. Once a driver is qualified and out on their own, it is their responsibility to ensure their own knowledge is kept up to date - there should never be an excuse for not knowing how to do a certain move.
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