slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jun 2, 2009 18:22:52 GMT
I thought that those tracks were going to be severed from everything else quite soon? If so, and there are no plans to permanently stable trains there (I can't remember) I can't see them installing any additional pointwork to access them. Passing occasionally that way,I couldn't help but notice how shiny the rails on the "abandoned" section seem:usually unused track changes colour in a week or so....are trains of some description still going toward Moorgate,or is there another explanation? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 18:41:03 GMT
I thought that those tracks were going to be severed from everything else quite soon? If so, and there are no plans to permanently stable trains there (I can't remember) I can't see them installing any additional pointwork to access them. Passing occasionally that way,I couldn't help but notice how shiny the rails on the "abandoned" section seem:usually unused track changes colour in a week or so....are trains of some description still going toward Moorgate,or is there another explanation? Apparently empty trains are going into Moorgate to reverse. I thought they had ceased until I saw one on Barbican CCTV going towards Moorgate last Friday evening. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 2, 2009 18:46:57 GMT
Apparently empty trains are going into Moorgate to reverse. I thought they had ceased until I saw one on Barbican CCTV going towards Moorgate last Friday evening.  You closet trainspotter ;D I have it on (reasonably) good authority that the "row/discussion" concerning 6-car S-stocks is not yet over. There are, apparently, ways and means of moving the bits and pieces on the 7th car and making them 6-car trains. That said, a 6-car S-stock is still slightly longer than a 6-car C-stock, so there will still be issues, but not to the extent we had previously heard. |
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Post by cetacean on Jun 2, 2009 20:22:24 GMT
The withdrawal of Moorgate services is a knock on effect of the services changes required to start building work at Blackfriars. It's due to remain open until the end of the year when it will be severed for the beginning of major construction at Farringdon.
The problem is, due to the slow delivery of new Electrostars, they have a severe shortage of dual-voltage stock and are using some AC-only units to run services from the north. These terminate at Farringdon and run empty to Moorgate.
A 7 car unit is a 3 car and 4 car half-unit bolted together, so you just need to build all the half-units as three cars.
(and the same applies to shortening Met S-Stock to 7 cars)
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 2, 2009 20:27:00 GMT
They better not provide the Met S stocks as 7 cars.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 0:43:02 GMT
I remember the large thread on S stock stabling, because I started it! ;0 Channeling COLIN: districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newfuturetrains&action=display&thread=7424I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the refurbishment of South Harrow as a storage site for displaced stock. You could easily use it to store 1973TS, which in turn would release space in Northfields for D stock, allowing S stock to stable at Ealing Common. You could even use it to store the S7s... |
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Post by johnb on Jun 3, 2009 14:18:05 GMT
I have it on (reasonably) good authority that the "row/discussion" concerning 6-car S-stocks is not yet over. There are, apparently, ways and means of moving the bits and pieces on the 7th car and making them 6-car trains. *bangs head against brick wall*. If this happens, then everyone involved should be (metaphorically) shot. SDO, FFS. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 4, 2009 16:46:11 GMT
*bangs head against brick wall*. If this happens, then everyone involved should be (metaphorically) shot. SDO, FFS. If which happens? The row? The moving of bits to make it 6 cars? Or S-7 stock ? |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 22:54:43 GMT
Straight from the fleet manager himself today. First test train on site september, after 10,000 test miles done on the track up north. First ten 8 car trains due around sept 2010, which will trigger the first ten a stock to be scrapped as these enter service. HOWEVER, all plans are currently under review, as not one of the fleet depots, ( neasden being the biggest problem ) have signed off plans to house, work on, maintain or even stable the new stock. The first train is due on September 2nd (85 days time) and it will have done 1000km's of mileage accumulation not 10,000 miles!  No plans are currently under review, the 'S' Stock can be maintained at Neasden 'as is', it just can't be lifted there currently. As it won't need to be lifted for some time this will not be an issue. Unless of course there is an unforeseen need to lift the train in which case it will be taken to Ruislip, uncoupled and lifted in the traditional way. Training for depot staff is due to take place shortly and indeed the 'train the trainer' courses have already taken place. Stabling plans are also in place. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 22:56:01 GMT
First ten 8 car trains due around sept 2010, which will trigger the first ten a stock to be scrapped as these enter service. Nooooooo!!  This was a lot later than expected, but fair play? What is the chance of it being later than Sept 2010? We are currently on program but things are slipping slightly. We are working on trying to recover the slippage right now. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 22:58:27 GMT
Nooooooo!! This was a lot later than expected, but fair play? What is the chance of it being later than Sept 2010? Much later from easter, back to september. With regard to sept 2010, who knows, everything is up in the air. Nothing is 'up in the air'! Where are you getting this from? We are on program and trains 1 and 2 are testing according to schedule with train 3 in build on the production line. There is some slippage imminent but we have identified this and are working to recover it before it has actually happened! |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:01:05 GMT
I think the S Stock might be a bit too high for the Finchley Road - Baker St Tunnels, it is a fair bit higher than the A Stock. Could be a few issues here with the S Stock. haha! Such a fundamental flaw being overlooked is frankly hysterical! (but typical!) Ahhh! I am pulling my hair out here!!  Current Sub-Surface trains are 1100 above rail height, where as 'S' is 980 due to the low floor design so of course it bl**dy looks taller. Come on guys, of course it is going to fit. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:05:34 GMT
I think the S Stock might be a bit too high for the Finchley Road - Baker St Tunnels, it is a fair bit higher than the A Stock. Could be a few issues here with the S Stock. I can't think that anyone would be so stupid as to order trains that are too high for the tunnels!! Mind you, as far as I'm aware, no platforms are going to be extended due to a shortfall of cash, so at some stations the 7 car train will be sitting with a car and a half up the tunnel!! The 8 car trains are also longer than the A stock, so maybe there will be quite a few issues to be dealt with. There are platform extensions going on right now. Only 30% of the SSR platforms are affected to a greater or lesser degree and mitigations are in place to deal with them (extensions being one of them). It is not 'some stations' that will have four doors (a car and a half) up the tunnel, if you remember the presentation I gave you I was very clear that it is only one station that will suffer this. Also, and again if you remember my presentation, an 'A' stock is 131 compared to 133 for an 'S8' so it is not massive amounts of extra length we are talking about. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:06:55 GMT
Surely it's only the 4 stations (Notting Hill, Bayswater, Edgware Road and Baker Street) that are too short for the 7 cars? Unfortunately not, there are a 'few' more than that! |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:08:34 GMT
The latest I've heard regarding the initial storage of S stock straight from delivery via Aylesbury and Amersham, is that it will go to Lillie Bridge, evicting Transplant's stock to Ruislip, to make the siding space available. We shall see!! You guys hear a lot of stuff, it just worries me where you are hearing it from! Lillie Bridge will in all liklihood be a stabling point for S7's in the future but there has been no talk of storing S8's there. There has been no talk of storing S8's at all. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:09:57 GMT
If it's the front and rear both part in tunnel that's going to be great for cab access and the driver's working environment. Having spent some (official) time in the cabs of 1996TS I found the PEDs created a very depressing and claustrophobic feeling. Won't this cause problems when the driver needs to step on the platform - eg (IIRC) if CSDE isn't working, or on some types of OMO monitor defect? No, remember that 'S' has an in-cab system for OPO. If that became defective then you are out of service anyway. CSDE works differently on the 'S' too. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:14:18 GMT
Won't this cause problems when the driver needs to step on the platform - eg (IIRC) if CSDE isn't working, or on some types of OMO monitor defect? If for example the train is at Baker St westbound, the train will have to stop approximately one and a half cars up the tunnel to clear the junction behind it. Should the T/Op need to get out, he/she will have to walk through the car. If a handsignal person is on the platform, then the train will have to stop, get whatever message from the HSP, then pull up the tunnel to the stopping mark. Not only a recipe for PEA's being operated, but also for the T/Op to lose concentration and inadvertantly carry on to Edgware Road. More straight forward on the eastbound as the rear portion will be left up the tunnel. I'll be very surprised if HMRI allow these scenarios to be adopted as standard practice. HMRI (or the Office of the Rail Regulator as they are now called) don't really dictate what we can and can't do in that way. They have our plans and are aware of the unique operational difficulties that you have described and seem happy with the mitigations that will be in place. In addition, new procedures are being looked at by Operational Standards to try and resolve issues around hand Signalmen. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:16:50 GMT
Apparently empty trains are going into Moorgate to reverse. I thought they had ceased until I saw one on Barbican CCTV going towards Moorgate last Friday evening. You closet trainspotter ;D I have it on (reasonably) good authority that the "row/discussion" concerning 6-car S-stocks is not yet over. There are, apparently, ways and means of moving the bits and pieces on the 7th car and making them 6-car trains. That said, a 6-car S-stock is still slightly longer than a 6-car C-stock, so there will still be issues, but not to the extent we had previously heard. Not this again! We will be getting 7 and 8 car trains. There are no plans to remove any cars and re-distribute equipment. It would cost us more than it would save us to get Bombardier to remove a car. Just for the record the issues around getting a 6 Car 'C' Stock replacement in service (as opposed to the ordered 7's) are still significant. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:19:40 GMT
They better not provide the Met S stocks as 7 cars..... We most certainly will not. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 8, 2009 23:22:58 GMT
I have it on (reasonably) good authority that the "row/discussion" concerning 6-car S-stocks is not yet over. There are, apparently, ways and means of moving the bits and pieces on the 7th car and making them 6-car trains. *bangs head against brick wall*. If this happens, then everyone involved should be (metaphorically) shot. SDO, FFS. If it does I will buy you the metaphorical gun to come and metaphorically shoot me. In all honesty though, when we went for the 7th car there were much more robust plans in place to manage the extra length. What with one thing and another though these plans have had to be scaled back. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I just wish I could go back four years and give myself some foresight!! ;D |
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Post by citysig on Jun 9, 2009 7:03:42 GMT
Not this again! We will be getting 7 and 8 car trains. There are no plans to remove any cars and re-distribute equipment. It would cost us more than it would save us to get Bombardier to remove a car. Just for the record the issues around getting a 6 Car 'C' Stock replacement in service (as opposed to the ordered 7's) are still significant. Maybe you should make a few phone calls then (if they are not reading this anyway ) A couple of members of senior management have a different impression... |
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Post by johnb on Jun 9, 2009 10:49:28 GMT
If it does I will buy you the metaphorical gun to come and metaphorically shoot me. In all honesty though, when we went for the 7th car there were much more robust plans in place to manage the extra length. What with one thing and another though these plans have had to be scaled back. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I just wish I could go back four years and give myself some foresight!! ;D I'm glad I don't have to shoot you, metaphorically or otherwise.  On one hand I agree it would have been great to have done all the infrastructure work originally planned for the 7th car upgrade. However, on the other, I'm very glad that we're now in a situation where the 7th car is a reality and you guys are having to find cheap, safe ways of making them work in short stations. If it'd been known in the first place that the money for the extensions wasn't there, we'd probably have been stuck with 6 cars on the Circle and H&C for another 40 years... |
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Post by happybunny on Jun 9, 2009 12:04:24 GMT
Will all the door cut outs be automatic, will the announcements be automatic too ?
It will be like South west bloody trains, "Platform 2 for the District Line service for all stations to Edgware Road, passengers for Bayswater will need to join the front 6 coaches due to short platforms at that station"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 12:08:09 GMT
But they won't have to use the first 6 cars because there is possible to walk between the cars!
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Post by happybunny on Jun 9, 2009 12:31:44 GMT
But it still makes more sense to join the first 6 if possible (i.e. you get to platform before the train), as if the train is packed, several people shoving in to next carriage just before arrival at Bayswater won't be a good idea
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2009 20:22:21 GMT
Not this again! We will be getting 7 and 8 car trains. There are no plans to remove any cars and re-distribute equipment. It would cost us more than it would save us to get Bombardier to remove a car. Just for the record the issues around getting a 6 Car 'C' Stock replacement in service (as opposed to the ordered 7's) are still significant. Maybe you should make a few phone calls then (if they are not reading this anyway ) A couple of members of senior management have a different impression... Yes, senior line management don't always help us lowly project staff and I think the majority of the 'half cocked' rumours emanate from them! Trust me on this, we are getting 8 and 7 car trains. No one on the project is working to deliver anything other than 7's and 8's. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2009 20:24:34 GMT
If it'd been known in the first place that the money for the extensions wasn't there, we'd probably have been stuck with 6 cars on the Circle and H&C for another 40 years... I couldn't possibly comment on that.  (although I am nodding as I type!  ) |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2009 20:31:33 GMT
Will all the door cut outs be automatic, will the announcements be automatic too ? It will be like South west bloody trains, "Platform 2 for the District Line service for all stations to Edgware Road, passengers for Bayswater will need to join the front 6 coaches due to short platforms at that station" The train is fitted with Selective Door Opening (SDO) which will automatically cut out the correct doors. When we get a new signalling system this will be achieved via the ATP system, but we will use Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RF ID Tags) in the interim for things such as Correct Side Door Enable (CSDE), and some other systems (such as Regen etc). As far as the passenger facing side of the system is concerned there will be automatic announcements in the saloon at the specific doorways (not throughout the entire train) and 'Not In Service' Indicators above the relevant doors which will illuminate when appropriate. It is also worth remembering that at most locations the impact of SDO will be minimised by evening out the amount of doors cut out front and back (2 front and 2 back at Bayswater as an example) - it is only Baker Street where we will experience the full impact of 7 cars and short platforms. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2009 20:34:06 GMT
But it still makes more sense to join the first 6 if possible (i.e. you get to platform before the train), as if the train is packed, several people shoving in to next carriage just before arrival at Bayswater won't be a good idea Most customers passengers will get used to things fairly quickly with a little education. I also think that people will change the way they travel and not bunch up on platforms because this is where their exit is at their destination - on 'S' you can board where ever you like and then walk through the train to point where you wish to alight. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2009 21:44:37 GMT
I also think that people will change the way they travel and not bunch up on platforms because this is where their exit is at their destination - on 'S' you can board where ever you like and then walk through the train to point where you wish to alight. ................just like they've been doing on the main line for years. So it shouldn't be a problem. |
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You closet trainspotter ;D
(although I am nodding as I type! 
)
