prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 10, 2009 0:02:20 GMT
Hi Guys, apologies for not being around much of late - work and home have been conspiring to keep me away from my computer! In light of my absence, I thought you might all appreciate an update on where we are with 'S' Stock: Train 1 - Fully coupled and currently undergoing dynamic testing on the Derby test track where the train has achieved 80km/h. Externally the train is awaiting some minor additions, including final design anti-climber valances (the current ones are incorrectly painted completely red), fitment of decals (car numbers/roundels etc.), and some small livery changes to the cab doors (the blue skirt is set too high and was fitted before we dropped the skirt to the huck-bolt cover level). Internally the train has undergone a minimal amount of fit out, with the priority being given to test equipment. Train 2 - Again fully coupled and undergoing static testing. Train 2 will be the first train to London and as such the train is fully fitted out internally. Also, the cabs have the final drivers desk fitted and are about to have the final design drivers/instructors seats installed. Generally the project is on schedule and we are currently concentrating on the MITRAC Train Control Management System (TCMS). Train 1 is very quiet and very smooth on the test track and the acceleration is exceptional (even with half motors and a simulated crush load!). So, brief I know but I thought you would like want to know whats happening.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 10, 2009 0:30:13 GMT
the train has achieved 80km/h. What's that in MPH?
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2009 1:10:38 GMT
50mph, which is the 09ts max speed. Hopefully we can get the other 12mph out of it soon!
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Post by mcmaddog on Feb 10, 2009 9:30:52 GMT
Thanks for the update - but weren't the S Stock supposed to be 70mph units?
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2009 15:17:19 GMT
S Stock is designed to have a max speed of 62.5mph. The A60/62 stock was designed for 70mph on delivery. To give you an idea of other stocks, the C69/77 max speed is 40mph, the T stock and Met electric locos could achieve 65mph. In fact the A stock holds the speed record for a four rail train.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles.....go on son!!!
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Post by mcmaddog on Feb 10, 2009 15:41:32 GMT
S Stock is designed to have a max speed of 62.5mph. Cheers for the clarification. I look forward to seeing a 62.5 board by the running lines ;D
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 10, 2009 15:57:47 GMT
Thing is the As, Cs, and Ds have all done at least 10mph faster than their design speed. Heres hoping that the S stock can beat that! Paul, any speed tests planned?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Feb 10, 2009 17:15:51 GMT
As I keep saying ad nauseum, the D Stock tour in 1979 ran fast line to Amersham and the handle was shoved into overdrive with a view to getting 70 out of the train..which it achieved! We had a running commentary from the front as to how line speed was being got up to.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2009 18:00:02 GMT
That's with both field flags in action I guess. The A stock has done over 70mph it is also said!
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Post by ek583 on Feb 10, 2009 18:00:37 GMT
That is awesome! I never knew that. The much beloved A stock... As much as I can't wait to try out the new S stock, I will be so sad when the last A stock trains are withdrawn from the Metropolitan line. On another note, will the S stock be able to beat the 1992 stock in terms of acceleration? And, I don't know if this has been discussed before but is it likely that the S stock's performance will be downgraded until the SSLs go full ATO?
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2009 18:14:51 GMT
I would imagine that you are correct on all counts. The 1992 stock is the only stock with all cars powered, from the sound of prjb the S stock will move like $+!/ off a shovel, hold on to your hats!
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Post by neasdena60 on Feb 10, 2009 19:21:58 GMT
god only knows where these trains will be maintained, the neasden depot upgrade is going from bad to worse.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 10, 2009 21:47:34 GMT
Thing is the As, Cs, and Ds have all done at least 10mph faster than their design speed. Heres hoping that the S stock can beat that! Paul, any speed tests planned? Not officially Ben, but I am sure we will all be keeping an eye on the speedo when it hits LU metals!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 10, 2009 21:51:19 GMT
On another note, will the S stock be able to beat the 1992 stock in terms of acceleration? And, I don't know if this has been discussed before but is it likely that the S stock's performance will be downgraded until the SSLs go full ATO? I fully expect the 'S' Stock to wipe the floor with a 92ts in both acceleration and top speed terms. The 'S' Stock will not indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. We have even fitted a 'virtual' weak field flag on the speed display and are planning for it to be enabled automatically according to location.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 10, 2009 21:53:58 GMT
I would imagine that you are correct on all counts. The 1992 stock is the only stock with all cars powered, from the sound of prjb the S stock will move like $+!/ off a shovel, hold on to your hats! The train does indeed have an impressive turn of speed, but it also stops on a sixpence too. Even with the icy rail conditions earlier this week the train came up in very short order with a little assistance from the Wheel Slide Protection (WSP) system.
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Post by ek583 on Feb 10, 2009 22:26:52 GMT
I fully expect the 'S' Stock to wipe the floor with a 92ts in both acceleration and top speed terms. The 'S' Stock will not indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. We have even fitted a 'virtual' weak field flag on the speed display and are planning for it to be enabled automatically according to location. The train does indeed have an impressive turn of speed, but it also stops on a sixpence too. Even with the icy rail conditions earlier this week the train came up in very short order with a little assistance from the Wheel Slide Protection (WSP) system. That's awesome news prjb! Now I really can't wait to try out the S stock. If it can beat the 1992 stock in terms of performance, then Finchley Road to Harrow-on-the-Hill on the Met fast line should be a lively ride!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 11, 2009 21:41:39 GMT
We have been looking at the Train Control Management System (TCMS) today on train 2. Whilst it isn't the final version it is reasonably advanced and is looking quite good. The Menu system is logical and easy to navigate and the use of colours and pictograms is good too. I haven't had as much to do with the TCMS as other parts of the train, our very own Tunnel Rat has done the lion share of this area. We have tried as much as possible not to let the system take the place of the drivers job and have not allowed messages displayed to 'dumb down' our train crew. It will not tell you to take the train out of service or keep it in, it gives very little operational advice, and it won't give you defect handling instructions either. As far as we are concerned the driver is in charge of the train and he/she is a highly trained and professional individual who can make decisions and implement procedures as required without the need for a computer to tell them what to do. There is more work to do but it is coming on nicely and shouldn't scare our older 'handle turners' too much when it arrives.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Feb 11, 2009 21:43:55 GMT
The 'S' Stock will not indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. Unfortunate typo here! I should have said: The 'S' Stock will indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock.
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Post by ek583 on Feb 11, 2009 23:44:13 GMT
The 'S' Stock will not indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. Unfortunate typo here! I should have said: The 'S' Stock will indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. Oh, ok so that means that the top speed will be limited to 50mph and the acceleration will be turned down to match that of the 'A' stock right? So does that mean that we will have to wait until all the sub-surface lines go ATO to see the full potential of the 'S' stock? Because the way the SSLs share tracks and stations, specially within central london, I can't imagine it being otherwise. Now God knows when that will come!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 12, 2009 0:28:10 GMT
As far as we are concerned the driver is in charge of the train and he/she is a highly trained and professional individual who can make decisions and implement procedures as required without the need for a computer to tell them what to do. I wonder why I'm smiling as I read that bit! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2009 3:41:50 GMT
The 'S' Stock will not indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. Unfortunate typo here! I should have said: The 'S' Stock will indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. I find that a bit surprising. At the very least, the S8s that will be running Main Met services should be permitted to reach 60mph to match the linespeed on the main lines between Harrow North and Amersham. It would certainly increase reliability with regards to Chiltern services.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 12, 2009 9:28:57 GMT
That may be so, but I imagine timetabling and service recovery would be a nightmare as you would have to make sure that an S stock train covered an S stock diagram. Until there are more S stocks than A stocks in service, I don't think this will happen. Maybe not even until there are only a handful (if that) of As left in service.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 12, 2009 10:30:30 GMT
It'll be interesting to see if there is any spin applied when the line speeds get raised to former levels. I suspect there will be; "New trains allow faster running times..." etc.
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Post by mcmaddog on Feb 12, 2009 16:19:15 GMT
That's awesome news prjb! Now I really can't wait to try out the S stock. If it can beat the 1992 stock in terms of performance, then Finchley Road to Harrow-on-the-Hill on the Met fast line should be a lively ride! I was just pondering - is the fantastic performance seen in Derby based on 750vDC or 600vDC current?
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 12, 2009 20:10:43 GMT
That's awesome news prjb! Now I really can't wait to try out the S stock. If it can beat the 1992 stock in terms of performance, then Finchley Road to Harrow-on-the-Hill on the Met fast line should be a lively ride! I was just pondering - is the fantastic performance seen in Derby based on 750vDC or 600vDC current? unlike old trains where more volts=more speed, the three phase drive is more like the chargers supplied with mobile phones. These give the same output whether on 110v or 240V. Thus S stock will go well at 600V and will give the same performance at 750V - but will draw less current at the higher voltage.
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Post by cetacean on Feb 12, 2009 21:16:08 GMT
One of the problems with third rail is the limited amount of current that can be drawn from it, so upping the voltage allows a proportional increase in maximum power draw, and hence acceleration.
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Post by neasdena60 on Feb 12, 2009 21:36:08 GMT
It would be nice if we had a depot ready to maintain them, they cannot run without this. This whole project will be very late, if the plans for neasden are not done soon.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 12, 2009 21:49:24 GMT
That may be so, but I imagine timetabling and service recovery would be a nightmare as you would have to make sure that an S stock train covered an S stock diagram. Until there are more S stocks than A stocks in service, I don't think this will happen. Maybe not even until there are only a handful (if that) of As left in service. What is the problem of having the S stock run faster, but waiting longer at stations so that the journey times would be the same? The 'S' Stock will indeed be limited when it enters service to match the profile of an 'A' Stock. Will the S stock for the Circle/H&C have their speed and acceleration limited to the same as C stock?
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 12, 2009 22:08:38 GMT
Yes, I would expect so, if inter running.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 12, 2009 22:54:15 GMT
That may be so, but I imagine timetabling and service recovery would be a nightmare as you would have to make sure that an S stock train covered an S stock diagram. Until there are more S stocks than A stocks in service, I don't think this will happen. Maybe not even until there are only a handful (if that) of As left in service. What is the problem of having the S stock run faster, but waiting longer at stations so that the journey times would be the same? You could equally say what is the point as the only people who would benefit would be those travelling just 1 stop? Also it would make timetabling more complicated, as timings would be different depending on whether the duty was done using A stock or S stock, as well as what type of train the preceding unit is (there is no point holding an S stock to let the train in front get a long way away if it is also an S stock that is running at top speed). As soon as you get a cancellation or short tripping for whatever reason, or a change in the proportion of A stock to S stock then all your carefully worked out calculations go out the window. Another issue is when you have a short distance between stations followed by a long one (e.g.Preston Road - Wembley Park - Finchley Road), while your S stock is waiting in the platform for the A stock ahead of it to get sufficiently far ahead that it (the S stock) can run to the next station at high speed, it's blocking the train behind (A or S) from entering the station. This means the S stock has to leave the platform before the preceding A stock is sufficiently far ahead, so the S stock catches up with the A stock and has to either stop-start repeatedly (with associated increased risk of SPADs and possibly increased wear on track and train) or run at the speed of the A stock - so why not just run them at the speed of the A stock in the first place? I'm just a lay person and so would not be at all surprised if I've overlooked something that our resident timetabling guru MRFS or any of the forum's drivers or service control professionals can think of.
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