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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2009 14:09:54 GMT
Surely it would have made sense to extend the OHLE the short distance down to Shepherd's Bush when it opened? It would have provided an opportunity for trains to changeover from power sources without having to make an extra stop just north of it.
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Post by dazz285 on Feb 9, 2009 17:15:16 GMT
Money.....
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Post by cetacean on Feb 9, 2009 17:52:08 GMT
The Hammersmith & City Line's signalling needs replacing or immunising against electrical interference from the OHLE where the WLL passes under it. It wasn't thought worth the effort, especially as the station was built pre-Metronet collapse and resignalling of the SSL was imminent.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 9, 2009 22:59:59 GMT
Then couldn't the 3rd rail be extended to Willesden Junction, and have trains change to overhead there?
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Post by cetacean on Feb 10, 2009 0:44:52 GMT
Yes, but you'd probably need another substation for the third rail and the electrical isolation issues on the dual electrified sections would be interesting, to say the least. You'd also run into the issue of where freight trains switch over - especially those headed for the WCML.
So: expensive, introduces new sticky operational issues and saves you a minute or two in journey time tops.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2009 0:58:08 GMT
If you can't move where train has to stop to change power source to a station ... put a station where you have to stop, and reconstruct St Quentin Park and Wormwood Scrubs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2009 2:27:21 GMT
The main reason why the third rail wasnt extended was down to money first of all and the H&C crossing it. There is no height to have overheads under this bridge. it either require the H&C to raise or the WLL to lower unlikely due to cost on both of them. With regard having the third rail to Willesden this was ruled out in 1995 when the NLL was closed and the third rail lifted completley. Also when it is not possible to extend third rail to areas which currently dont have it and any new sections of electrification must be overhead wires. Also if you remove the change over point at North Pole where would the Southern service change?
As for the change at North pole Junction, this was done long before their was a plan to open a station at Shepherds Bush. It was discussed as to whether to move the change over point to Shepherds Bush, but as well as the cost it would not save any time in the train service. So would really be a waste of time.
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Post by suncloud on Feb 11, 2009 8:01:17 GMT
There is an old thread somewhere that also discusses this, but not sure where it is. I think the 377s take a bit longer to switch over than the 313s, but the Southern service seems to have slack in it's timetable as it uses the WLL, presumably relating to the slots it uses on the WCML and Southern Mainline.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 11, 2009 22:22:20 GMT
Does that mean that class 378s will also take longer to change than the class 313s?
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Post by dazz285 on Feb 12, 2009 10:13:21 GMT
No. The 377's have to raise their shoes where as the 378's do not have this. So should be qicker..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2009 12:46:12 GMT
The Hammersmith & City Line's signalling needs replacing or immunising against electrical interference from the OHLE where the WLL passes under it. It wasn't thought worth the effort, especially as the station was built pre-Metronet collapse and resignalling of the SSL was imminent. I see.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2009 12:48:00 GMT
Then couldn't the 3rd rail be extended to Willesden Junction, and have trains change to overhead there? Good idea, but this still leaves the Southern services stuck with nowhere to change over - as they bypass the LO station at Willesden Junction. They veer off just before it and don't even pass through, as they need to get to the fast lines leading from Euston. Edit: routemasterkeith has beaten me to it on this point.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 21:34:14 GMT
I don't get it; surely one of the reasons always given against re-building a station at North Pole is that it would reduce capacity on the line; and yet the trains have to stop for a station-stop length of time for the power switch anyway.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 23, 2009 22:19:48 GMT
Good idea, but this still leaves the Southern services stuck with nowhere to change over - as they bypass the LO station at Willesden Junction. They veer off just before it and don't even pass through, as they need to get to the fast lines leading from Euston. Southern trains often wait ages before they can get onto the WCML, so they could change to overhead between the WLL and the WCML.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 10:30:48 GMT
The 377's can change power source while moving.
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Post by mcmaddog on Feb 25, 2009 14:42:56 GMT
The 377's can change power source while moving. Not noticed this myself, on Southern 377s when stopped the entire train powers down bar emergency lightling, even the PIS changes to just say 'Electrostar'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 20:49:33 GMT
They have done changeovers on the move in the past, but if such an attempted changeover fails then chances are the train won't be able to stop safely within the changeover zone (apparently). Hence the 1+ minute pause near North Pole Junction, although I wouldn't be surprised if the above could be dealt with by doing so at a low speed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2009 15:17:01 GMT
They have done changeovers on the move in the past, but if such an attempted changeover fails then chances are the train won't be able to stop safely within the changeover zone (apparently). Hence the 1+ minute pause near North Pole Junction, although I wouldn't be surprised if the above could be dealt with by doing so at a low speed. So how come the Eurostars were able to changeover without stopping? Wouldn't they ahve faced a similar problem had the changeover failed?
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Post by littlecog on Mar 2, 2009 16:33:32 GMT
They have done changeovers on the move in the past, but if such an attempted changeover fails then chances are the train won't be able to stop safely within the changeover zone (apparently). Hence the 1+ minute pause near North Pole Junction, although I wouldn't be surprised if the above could be dealt with by doing so at a low speed. So how come the Eurostars were able to changeover without stopping? Wouldn't they ahve faced a similar problem had the changeover failed? They're designed for it and other stocks aren't but can be bodged?
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Post by astock5000 on Mar 2, 2009 19:34:09 GMT
Could it be that the changeover area is longer where the Eurostars run?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2009 13:18:27 GMT
Also when it is not possible to extend third rail to areas which currently dont have it and any new sections of electrification must be overhead wires. Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that the ban only applied to new electrification projects and not extensions to existing ones - hence why MerseyTravel have been going on about Extending the 3rd rail to Wrexham in recent months again.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 3, 2009 13:28:26 GMT
Could it be that the changeover area is longer where the Eurostars run? What short memories we have! When Eurostars used Waterloo, and were based at North Pole, all depot workings used the WLL - indeed, that is why the WLL was electrified in the first place - and had to change over en route. Large chunks of the NLL also have the North-of-London Eurostars (which never ran) to thank for being electrified on the OHLE
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Post by johnb on Mar 3, 2009 14:15:53 GMT
@ electra: yes, extensions are allowed (also, protected 3rd-rail is still allowed for new projects)
@ norbitonflyer: but did the ECS E*s change over on the WLL without stopping, or was that only the ones in service at Fawkham and Ashford-ish?
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Post by suncloud on Mar 3, 2009 21:23:59 GMT
I thought Eurostars on the WLL did not need to change over as third rail extends into the depot's reception roads...
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Post by johnb on Mar 4, 2009 12:00:52 GMT
Actually that's a really good point. The only ones that needed to change over were the GNER subleased ones, on their way between OOC and Kings Cross via the NLL.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 16:21:25 GMT
Could it be that the changeover area is longer where the Eurostars run? Sorry - I meant the area just before Folkestone where the Eurostars used to switch power sources whilst on the move.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 16:24:38 GMT
I thought Eurostars on the WLL did not need to change over as third rail extends into the depot's reception roads... I meant the way they switched power on the move near Folkestone. Basically; if the issue of dual-voltage trains having to stop in order to change sources was solved with the advent of the eurostars, I really can't understand why this technological breakthrough did not reach to subsequent trains.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 18:33:42 GMT
Read my earlier post again (reply #17) - the problem is the length of the WLL changeover section, not the ability to do dynamic changeovers which modern units like 377s have.
I expect the changeover section the E*s used were long enough to contain any that failed dynamic changeovers and have not heard anything that suggests otherwise; or perhaps all dynamic changeovers on that line between the opening of CTRL1 and CTRL2 were flawless. I've no idea which is true.
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