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Post by ek583 on Feb 6, 2009 23:52:36 GMT
I was just wondering, with the introduction of the S stock in the near future and the resulting changes to the Circle and H&C, what kind of changes can we expect to see on the Met? I am specifically regarding to the Met's proposed eastern extension to Barking.
If it does get extended to Barking, what will the service patterns be like? And how will the terminus platforms at Aldgate be used then?
And also, will the terminus platforms at Barking be able to accommodate 8 car S stock trains?
Ok I know that's a lot of questions asked, but I'm just curious.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 7, 2009 0:03:57 GMT
I was just wondering, with the introduction of the S stock in the near future and the resulting changes to the Circle and H&C, what kind of changes can we expect to see on the Met? I am specifically regarding to the Met's proposed eastern extension to Barking. If it does get extended to Barking, what will the service patterns be like? And how will the terminus platforms at Aldgate be used then? And also, will the terminus platforms at Barking be able to accommodate 8 car S stock trains? Ok I know that's a lot of questions asked, but I'm just curious. The Met will not be extended to Barking. The plan was for the H&C to terminate at Aldgate instead of Barking. I think it would have been Uxbridge services running to Barking, as they are the ones that run to Aldgate now. I'm not sure how long the bay platform at Barking is, but trains can reverse in the sidings between Barking and Upney. As the Met's S stock will be 8-car and will have a slightly different seating layout, changes would have to be made to the S stock fleet if LU ever decides to extend the Met. 58 8-car S stock trains were ordered, and that is not enough to run the Met to Barking. |
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Post by ek583 on Feb 7, 2009 0:50:55 GMT
The Met will not be extended to Barking. The plan was for the H&C to terminate at Aldgate instead of Barking. I think it would have been Uxbridge services running to Barking, as they are the ones that run to Aldgate now. I'm not sure how long the bay platform at Barking is, but trains can reverse in the sidings between Barking and Upney. As the Met's S stock will be 8-car and will have a slightly different seating layout, changes would have to be made to the S stock fleet if LU ever decides to extend the Met. 58 8-car S stock trains were ordered, and that is not enough to run the Met to Barking. Ok, that clears things up for me. Because I was confused thinking that I have read it somewhere on this forum about the Met's proposed extension to Barking. But I was obviously mistaken. So for now the Met stays as it is. Only that the good old A stock will be greatly missed!  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 2:17:13 GMT
.I'm not sure how long the bay platform at Barking is, but trains can reverse in the sidings between Barking and Upney. An 8 car A60 won't fit in Barking bay road, so an S stock definitly won't either. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 8:49:56 GMT
.I'm not sure how long the bay platform at Barking is, but trains can reverse in the sidings between Barking and Upney. An 8 car A60 won't fit in Barking bay road, so an S stock definitly won't either. Absolutely - a 6 car D stock is a pretty tight fit! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 10:19:24 GMT
An 8 car A60 won't fit in Barking bay road, so an S stock definitly won't either. Absolutely - a 6 car D stock is a pretty tight fit! If a 6 car D stock is a tight fit, how do TFL propose to get a 7 car S stock in the same space. Are they planning platform/bay extensions? |
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Post by upfast on Feb 7, 2009 10:43:49 GMT
Absolutely - a 6 car D stock is a pretty tight fit! If a 6 car D stock is a tight fit, how do TFL propose to get a 7 car S stock in the same space. Are they planning platform/bay extensions? I am led to believe that 7 cars of S Stock is about the same as 6 cars of D Stock. The difference being that the D Stock cars are very long, where as the S Stock will be shorter cars (like the C Stock). |
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Post by ek583 on Feb 7, 2009 12:00:19 GMT
Absolutely - a 6 car D stock is a pretty tight fit! Excuse me for being naiive, but I was under the impression that the D stocks always operate as 8 car trains? |
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Post by upfast on Feb 7, 2009 12:01:56 GMT
Absolutely - a 6 car D stock is a pretty tight fit! Excuse me for being naiive, but I was under the impression that the D stocks always operate as 8 car trains?[/quote Not possible! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 7, 2009 12:29:58 GMT
Indeed - D stocks are made up of 2 x 3 car units!
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 7, 2009 13:26:06 GMT
Just to clear it up:
A60/62 stock DM-T-T-DM+DM-T-T-DM
C69/77 stock DM-T+DM-T+T-DM or DM-T+T-DM+T-DM
D78 stock DM-T-UNDM+UNDM-T-DM or DM-T-DM+UNDM-T-DM or DM-T-UNDM+DM-T-DM
or very occasionally DM-T-DM+DM-T-DM
Notes: - indicates semi-permanent bar coupling
+ indicates wedgelock automatic coupler between units.
Most inner end A60/62 (all A62) DM not converted to OPO and only able to run in middle of train.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Feb 7, 2009 13:29:29 GMT
For me, its disappointing to hear that the S Stock cars will be shorter than a D Stock car
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 7, 2009 13:31:34 GMT
Why? With walk through connections it shouldn't matter. The S stock cars are quite long anyway (too long, some would argue!).
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Post by uzairjubilee on Feb 7, 2009 14:03:27 GMT
Oh gosh yes! Walk through cars - how could I forget.
I need to look at my pictures from the S Stock mock up in Euston ....
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 7, 2009 15:04:02 GMT
Its not actually that much shorter. I think an S is about the equivilant of 55' against the D stocks 60', the A's 53' (and a quarter inch [?!]) and a C stock trailer at 49' Tubeprune did write a list of car lengths in mm and train lengths in mm for all the surface stock in use, the S stock comparison, and the difference. Its the most useful table Ive seen in years, but I always forget where it is! Might someone be able to channel Colin?  Also, prjb did mention that something like only 30% of stations platforms can accomodate the S stock without any work at the moment. I think thats what was said? Multipull Colin channeling, perhaps... If Barking bay is the only platform that can't take an 8 car train on that stretch it should at least be future proofed just in case. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 7, 2009 16:35:08 GMT
Its not actually that much shorter. I think an S is about the equivilant of 55' against the D stocks 60', the A's 53' (and a quarter inch [?!]) and a C stock trailer at 49' Tubeprune did write a list of car lengths in mm and train lengths in mm for all the surface stock in use, the S stock comparison, and the difference. Its the most useful table Ive seen in years, but I always forget where it is! Might someone be able to channel Colin? I know this isn't the post you refer to, but it's a start: www.districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=newfuturetrains&action=display&thread=7424&page=7#161601Also, prjb did mention that something like only 30% of stations platforms can accomodate the S stock without any work at the moment. I think thats what was said? Multipull Colin channeling, perhaps... I'll see what I can find..... If Barking bay is the only platform that can't take an 8 car train on that stretch it should at least be future proofed just in case. Plaistow bay is the same as Barking bay - already tight for a D stock..........I would imagine all of the platforms East of Aldgate East would have no problem accommodating an 8 car, if the platform end barriers were adjusted accordingly..... |
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Post by Colin on Feb 7, 2009 17:12:20 GMT
Well I've been looking, but haven't dug up anything more, and I'm going out tonight and need to get ready soon so time has run out.........perhaps somebody else may be able to locate the info?.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 17:28:06 GMT
I agree that Barking bay cannot now take 8-car trains, but it must have been able to in the past - before "Moorgate" signalling was installed, although 8-car Districts were abolished in c.1971.
"Moorgate" signal protection at Barking -
02.11.75 - Home signal FF59 becamne approach-controlled to bay platform.
08.01.77 - Two fixed red lights and fixed trainstop installed which defined the present berth.
07.10.84 - Approach-controlled 15mph and 10mph trainstops installed in bay platform and approach control on FF59 to bay relaxed in consequence to 20mph. Track circuit interrupter also commissioned.
I assume all that is still there and working today.
Having said all that, although it "could" be possible to fit an 8-car into the bay it would mean reducing the overrun, which is no doubt a no-no in today's world (H&SE et al).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 18:35:30 GMT
If Barking bay is the only platform that can't take an 8 car train on that stretch it should at least be future proofed just in case. Plaistow bay Bow Road and Whitechapel will also cause problems. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 20:09:31 GMT
Absolutely right !!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 7, 2009 21:29:28 GMT
Whats changed at Bow road and whitechappel since 1971? Many thanks for the help for post finding  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2009 22:52:58 GMT
Whats changed at Bow road and whitechappel since 1971? Many thanks for the help for post finding No idea. Presumably the end doors were cut out on either end. I suppose this could again be done on S stock. |
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Post by ek583 on Feb 8, 2009 0:22:53 GMT
Indeed - D stocks are made up of 2 x 3 car units! Just to clear it up: A60/62 stock DM-T-T-DM+DM-T-T-DM C69/77 stock DM-T+DM-T+T-DM or DM-T+T-DM+T-DM D78 stock DM-T-UNDM+UNDM-T-DM or DM-T-DM+UNDM-T-DM or DM-T-UNDM+DM-T-DM or very occasionally DM-T-DM+DM-T-DM Notes: - indicates semi-permanent bar coupling + indicates wedgelock automatic coupler between units. Most inner end A60/62 (all A62) DM not converted to OPO and only able to run in middle of train. Ok thanks for that info guys. Because I was thinking that the C stock was the shortest with 6 car trains, and the fact that the Met ran 8 car trains, the D stocks must operate as 8 car as well. It's mainly because I travel quite frequently on the Circle and Met, but very rarely on the District. But now I know that the D stock has longer cars than the A stock. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 8, 2009 0:50:50 GMT
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 8, 2009 6:57:36 GMT
7-car S stock will be about 10m longer than a D stock train
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 8, 2009 7:08:16 GMT
and......... all S stocks will have an end door cut out system that can cut out up to all three double doorways of each driving motor car and the first double doorway of the next car. It will be known as selective door opening or SDO. the new Correct Side Door Enable system will also control SDO. When a train receives the CSDE signal it will tell the train that it is correcty berthed and give it a code to identify the station. The train will have a database built in that a) double checks that the location is correct (eg WB St James's Park must follow Westminster) and b) looks up the rules for the station. it will only allow doors on the correct side that are guaranteed to be in the platform to open
for 7 car trains on the Distirct, the vast majority of platforms are long enough. Notting Hill Gate to Baker St on the Circle will be more challenging!
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