LU Shunts & Passengers

At Embankment, passengers are allowed I think it's WB > EB but not a shunt the other way? I think that passengers can be carried over the East Putney GF as well.

Incidentally, today trains were reversing at Netley, on the Southampton-bound (Down?) line back towards Fareham over the trailing crossover. There is also one at Woolston. Then nothing until St Denys. Trains can shunt Down - Up or Southampton-bound to Fareham-bound at Woolston in passenger service via the cross-over (both are Ground Frames) but has to be clipped and scotched each time. Today trains were ECS and again poinst were C & Sd. However, passengers have been carried in the opposite direction from Fareham-bound to Southampton-bound.

Not strictly a shunt move, trains can run wrong line from Totton to Redbridge across the causeway on the Down line with wrong-road starter at Totton, plus gantry-mounted route indicators on the causeway just before Redbridge Junction. In theory this is just from for freights from the Marchwood branch to run to Millbrook Freightliner, or past Redbridhe to cross over to the Up main. However fairly recently there was a problem on the Up line and Voyagers were allowed to run wrong-line from Totton Junction to past Redbridge, so perhaps on NR the rules relating to freight-only can be waived in emergency?

I was always taught that we can take passengers over ALL network rail shunt signals (or at least position light which I believe are the only ones still in operation on most of the network). This makes me believe that there shunt signals, where points involve also have full locking, like the normal coloured light signalling.. unlike LUL's shunts where as Colin says, do not offer full interlocking safety !

I suppose it would be handy for LULs shunts to offer full interlocking.. take this example, you leave ECT EB p2, get to EC13 which stays on, you hear there has been a signal problem, defective train, or whatever ahead.. what could be a long delay between stations could now easily be a short delay as the driver changes ends and just takes the train via the shunt back into ECT!

OK the passengers wouldn't be happy, but within 5-10 mins they could be on the Picc continuing there journey, rather than stuck in tunnel for ages !

Also just say that the shunts in BKG SDG offered full interlocking as coloured light signals do. Get to Barking EB, there is a problem with signals through the main, train can go through the sidings in service to Upney, preventing a shut-down!

It will probably never happen I know.. I wonder if anyone has ever left Aldgate East EB and just after leaving the platform been called by the LC telling them to stop at the LOS there is big problem at Whitechapel, and change ends go back into the WB platform, with the passengers

But that never proved a problem when 'calling on' signals were in regular use (can you imagine a LU risk assessment for coupling up in service in 2009! - though it's quite normal on NR).

Yes, but there was still the risk of an 'obstruction' ahead - i .e another train

Stratford Market Depot has 2 Calling on Signals to allow coupling up of 3 & 4 car units of 1996 tube stock, but only for Alstom drivers, LUL drivers are not allowed to use them ;D

Hmm, are you saying that a shunt signal may not (as distinct from should not) be cleared unless the track for the signalled move is (proved) clear? Which implies that any move onto track which is not clear must be by passing a shunt (or other) signal at stop? Whereas the way I imagined it, for a shunt signal to be cleared, the route had to be set, but it was not necessary for the track to be clear.


Looking at the LT 1969 General Signalling Regulations, for shunt signals it says they (when off) "authorise shunt movements at caution" with the indication described as "PROCEED at caution as far as the line is clear" - what I wonder does it say for in the current rules?

In that publication both Warning (disc with a red stripe and W) and Calling-on (disc with a red stripe and C - as illustrated) are described. Calling-on signals "authorize a movement into a partially occupied platform road" - they "can only be cleared when the platform road is partially occupied and after the train has been brought to rest at the signal". Warning signals "are associated with Calling-on signals" and when cleared "authorize a train movement at caution to the next signal". For both the indication is described as "proceed at caution as far as the line is clear". (So precisely what were warning signals for, and when and where were they used?)

Everyone here has missed the main reason : any points over which passenger trains operate MUST have alocking mechanism which will prevent movement of the points under the train.

Basically, if a set of points has a running signal associated with it, then it can be used for passenger carrying trains. If a shunt or other subsidiary signal is provided, the points may not neccesarily be locked to prevent movement under the train.

If any passenger movements are to be made made over points which do not have locking, then the points must be clipped and scotched to prevent movement. A clip is a device like a G clamp fitted with a padlock and a scotch is a wedge shaped piece of wood which fits between between the point blade and the running rail to prevent the point blades moving. Where this occurs, a hand signalman is provided.

It used to be on BR that some main line points especially trailing crossovers were fiited with point locks but only had shunt signals. In these cases, no handsignalman was provided, passenger train movements being authorised by the signalman.

There are also places on BR where a shunt signal was placed beyond a running signal, i.e. on the approach to Waterloo, where the shunt signal had to be cleared to allow an "up" train to enter the platform. The main aspect could not be cleared unless the running shunt signal was also clear. The purpose there of the shunt signal was for shunting within station limits.

I can't think of any instances on LT where passenger movements were made over points without locking, even in emergency.

If you look on the Gunnersbury thread elsewhere, there is a reference to w/b to e/b movements. In semaphore days these would have been made with the points clipped and scoched with a handsignalman provided working under the authority of the signalman. there was a similar siuation at East Putney in semaphore days.

I can't recall any emergency crossovers on LT that would require such arrangements.

It will take me a while to dig up a germane example (I think my notes/circuit diagrams on this particular instance are 400 miles away), but I can vaguely remember instances of a selected signal as below, with acknowledgments to forum member Harsig for pinching part of his diagram as an illustration ;D:



In this case (49^A, 49^B and 51^A, 51^B) at Hainault the two signals on each post are selected by the position of the points in advance. In these cases the interlocking would be the same, but the points would be fitted with a 'dab' as the groundlock (holding the route when everything has stopped moving and is de-energised) and this would be detected in the WKR circuit for the appropriate passenger signals, but omitted in the circuit for the discs.

I'm pretty sure that I've got some notes on older installations where the points were locked to the same standard for non-passenger moves, but the appropriate contacts were bridged out as part of the selection side of the circuit for the non-passenger move. I'm not sure this example from Hainault is the one I'm thinking of, as this post is written from memory.

Further to Oracle, and Totteridge GF, I understand it is still in situ, but I think was last used in anger (with passenger trains) during the period of single line working 29/7/82 - 13/9/82 between Totteridge and High Barnet.

Thanks about T & W.

In reply to Colin's comment, sorry I missed that part of your opening speech! It was worded differently to what I said.

Ground frame controlled points will not usually have point locks fitted, and if used ofr passenger moves, will need to be clipped and scotched for a passenger carrying train to run over them. Such crossings are usually in the trailing direction. There are some on BR that face the direction of travel. some i can think of are between Raynes Park and New Malden between the down local and down main; between Point Pleasant and Putney, down Windsor main and down Windsor local.

Again, when these have been used, they've been clipped and scotched and handsignalled.

No doubt the T&W groundframe operator displays a hand signal before a movement is made.