Deleted
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GB3
May 30, 2006 19:41:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2006 19:41:00 GMT
Going down to Richmond this afternoon, I was held at signal GB3, which is the home signal for Gunnersbury, just before Gunnersbury junction, where we merge with the North London Line.
Having waited about a minute I was very surprised to see a Silverlink emerge and go across the junction right in front of me. I've never seen that happen before - usually get held at the previous signal, GB1. The distance from GB3 to the junction is very short, less than the stopping distance at 40mph.
So, can the signal for the North London only be cleared when the train at GB3 has actually stopped? Has something here changed when the junction was relaid in April?
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Deleted
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GB3
May 30, 2006 23:18:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2006 23:18:25 GMT
proberly they did do a few mods to the signalling in the area but god knows what
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GB3
May 31, 2006 6:14:31 GMT
Post by citysig on May 31, 2006 6:14:31 GMT
I would say more than "probably." Safety signalling systems are not a hit and miss affair.
I am not strictly familiar with the area, but given that I am familiar with signalling, I would assume that if GB3 is that close to the junction, the statement adw gives in the last sentence is more than likely correct.
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solidbond
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GB3
May 31, 2006 8:12:37 GMT
Post by solidbond on May 31, 2006 8:12:37 GMT
This arrangement has existed for quite some time, and is used occasionally, but not very often, although I have no idea what the benefit of doing it is - it would seem just as easy to let the District continue into the platform once it has got to GB3, rather than holding the District, waiting for the route to become available for the Silverlink, and then letting the Silverlink through first
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Deleted
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GB3
May 31, 2006 20:56:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2006 20:56:47 GMT
thinking as a signalman here they proberly do not want the train out of turn if the silverlink train is timetabled before the district just a guess though
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Deleted
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GB3
May 31, 2006 21:50:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2006 21:50:18 GMT
Thanks for the info. Only advantage I can see is if another Richmond train was behind me, allowing it to go up to GB1 instead of sitting at Turnham Green clogging up the Ealing road.
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Deleted
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GB3
Jun 1, 2006 5:02:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2006 5:02:16 GMT
Thanks for the info. Only advantage I can see is if another Richmond train was behind me, allowing it to go up to GB1 instead of sitting at Turnham Green clogging up the Ealing road. That is one benefit, yes, as long as the train actually can get that close - not sure of the area. To have the train so close you need to prove that it has stopped before the route from the NLL is available, you also need the backlock release for GB1s, and in most cases, to get this, you need the train to draw right up to the signal, so all in all drawing a train up is a bit pointless, as you can easily lock yourself right up at no fault of your own (if the train stops short of the signal), as I have done myself in the past! |
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GB3
Jun 1, 2006 9:28:59 GMT
Post by trainopd78 on Jun 1, 2006 9:28:59 GMT
thinking as a signalman here they proberly do not want the train out of turn if the silverlink train is timetabled before the district just a guess though Network rail are, how shall I put this, financially obligated to give Silverlink the road. I've been 60 seconds late before now at GB1's and was held for 4 - 5 minutes to allow the Silverlink across. By the time I got to Richmond, I was due straight out. To add insult to injury, I was due out of Richmond before the said Silverlink. This is now an everyday occurance. I have sat at GB3's before now, but as has been said, the signallers don't seem to like using the facility. I'm guessing MA's hypothesis is correct. I'm hoping when TfL rail take over, the fining systems between the TOC's, LU and NR will be modified to make things a bit fairer to all parties involved. |
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GB3
Jun 1, 2006 9:43:51 GMT
Post by mandgc on Jun 1, 2006 9:43:51 GMT
If I remember rightly, at Mansion House, it was posible for a WB train from Cannon St.. to be brought into the WB platform with the Starting Signal held at Danger and the lever for the Inner Home signal (immediately behind the train) then to be placed at Normal. With both WB signal levers Normal in the frame (and provided the train had not passed the signal and occupied the Track Circuit covering the Points) it was possible for the Points from the Bay Road to the WB line to be Reversed and the signal cleared for the train in the Bay Road.
I am not aware of the present signal interlocking but I have no doubt that it is possible for this method of protection to be provided today in LUL and NR signalling.
This would allow the train to follow the previous train as soon as conditions allowed and , as has been said, possibly allow the following train to draw forward clear of the Junction in rear.
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Deleted
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GB3
Jun 1, 2006 13:41:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2006 13:41:23 GMT
Network rail are, how shall I put this, financially obligated to give Silverlink the road. Just like we have to do with Chiltern, up on the proper railway!  |
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GB3
Jun 1, 2006 15:54:18 GMT
Post by trainopd78 on Jun 1, 2006 15:54:18 GMT
If I remember rightly, at Mansion House, it was posible for a WB train from Cannon St.. to be brought into the WB platform with the Starting Signal held at Danger and the lever for the Inner Home signal (immediately behind the train) then to be placed at Normal. With both WB signal levers Normal in the frame (and provided the train had not passed the signal and occupied the Track Circuit covering the Points) it was possible for the Points from the Bay Road to the WB line to be Reversed and the signal cleared for the train in the Bay Road. I am not aware of the present signal interlocking but I have no doubt that it is possible for this method of protection to be provided today in LUL and NR signalling. This would allow the train to follow the previous train as soon as conditions allowed and , as has been said, possibly allow the following train to draw forward clear of the Junction in rear. This is indeed still possible. |
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Deleted
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GB3
Jun 2, 2006 21:20:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2006 21:20:05 GMT
I would hazard a guess that GB3 may be equipped with a timer of some sort - a train sitting at GB3 long enough for the timer to expire, combined with the relevant track circuits down or up, might now be used to release GB5 (the inner home on the down NLL, IIRC).
I have also sat at GB3 watching a Silverlink traverse the junction, so this facility has been available before the junction was rebuilt.
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Deleted
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GB3
Jun 7, 2006 15:23:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2006 15:23:17 GMT
Drawing you up to GB3 has increased substantially..... I've never been so drawn up before the renewed junction layout, but have now been allowed to watch the Silverlink getting priority some 5 times in the last 2.5 weeks.  As solidbond says, it seems far more sensible to let the D stock go, if the Silverlink is that far back !! |
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GB3
Jun 7, 2006 21:58:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2006 21:58:57 GMT
The question was asked by me over on the Simsig forum, and has been answered by someone who knows the official answer!
Here is an answer direct from the North London Line:
Yes - facility as always existed.
Reason why trains are held at GB1 - Signaller would rather hold trains at GB1 because if a train is signalled towards GB3 then a 2 minute lock is operational preventing any Silverlink service from moving across the Junction. Another reason is if a train is held at GB1 and a incident occurs which prevents the train from going forward it is easier to set back to Turnham Green from GB1 then if the train is stuck at GB3.
All the signaller's except one at Richmond will hold trains at GB1, but it's upto the signaller on duty how he signals the trains at Gunnersbury.
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Oracle
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GB3
Jun 13, 2006 12:58:15 GMT
Post by Oracle on Jun 13, 2006 12:58:15 GMT
On another forum a message just came through about certain Virgin XC trains Anglo-Scottish becoming Cat 9 as per Eurostar, thus getting preferential treatment, ...This is an initiative that started last year (I think, maybe the year before). These are long distance trains running through several territories deemed to be of particular importance. If they miss their path at any point then the knock on effects would be disastrous. The idea is to give these trains ultra high priority in signalling/control decisions, rather than have a 5 minute delay translated into 15 minutes at the next hand-over, then 25 next, and so on..... I can imagine that the NR signallers give priority to SN for similar reasons. I suppose the nature of the NL is now such that delays could cause conflicts in north London with freight traffic...and to think Dr Beeching was apparently seriously considering deleting the NLL at one stage! I am too young to remember the 'Midland Coal Trains' that usefd the now long-gone curve at Bollo Lane Junction, onto the District and thence through the 'hole in the wall' to the EB District/Picc. I do however remember the unelectrified lines through the underpass west of Turnham Green and the later 'fifth track' that was electrified and I believe was a Goods Loop for holding the trains. I wonder what the priorities were in those days, from the British Railwaus and LT sides? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Has anyone seen the Norman Wisdom film ON THE BEAT? When Norm plays football in his late father's old Police uniform the lads all play on a patch of dirt in a parkland near terraced houses. In the background there is a railway viaduct, and I have often thought it looks like Brentford Dock, then near Turnham Green but there is at least one gantry semaphore visible and I thus have no idea! The filming must have been not far from Ealing. I have wondered whether it was near the erstwhile NSWJJ Hammersmith & Chiswick station not that far from Stamford Brook. Ho hum! It was of course filmed at Windsor on the ex-GWR branch line and nowhere near London! Oops. |
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