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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2009 13:48:36 GMT
as a fan of a team that plays regularly at millwall, I have fond memories of the ell on match days. after the game we would be walked to surrey quays, and then an empty stock would come to pick us all up and then go non stop to liverpool street via the junction at whitechapel. all under the watchful eye of the local plod last time this happened was in 1994, the question after detraining at liverpool street how did the stock get back to new cross depot. is there a crossover at liverpool street, or would it have to have continued right round the circle line back to tower hill and then cross over back to whitechapel on the district or can you crossover between ls and aldgate??
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 20, 2009 14:04:21 GMT
Looking at ELL WTT 3 (16/5/93), the special train arrangements for football at Millwall were tied in with the stock transfer paths between New Cross depot and Neasden.
Moves off the ELL for football traffic would go to Neasden after detraining at Liverpool Street; reversing in Neasden - occasionally going via the Jubilee after Finchley Road and occasionally washing in Neasden - before heading back to New Cross depot.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 20, 2009 16:07:43 GMT
So would the same train be the one to return to New Cross depot or would a unit swap take place then?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 20, 2009 17:15:59 GMT
That information isn't explicitly stated in the WTT; with the exception of one trip is stated as being 'wash and reverse only'. However, the information is such that stock swaps took place, unless another action is specified in the WTT - inward and outward have the same set number. Mondays - Fridays 407 off New X Depot 1233, into Neasden 13z41
407 off Neasden 1409, into New X Depot 1456
406 off NXD 2009 into N 21z05
WASH AND REVERSE ONLY
406 off N 2126 into NXD 2224
406 FORMED FROM TRAIN 177 BELOW
406 off N 2322 into NXD 0014 Sats 407 off NXD 1803 into N 19z03
407 off N 1933 into NXD 2024 Suns 407 off NXD 1524 into N 16z25
407 off N 1731 into NXD 1824 Arrangements for football traffic at Millwall (1945 MF, 1500 Sat)Mondays - Fridays 177 stand spare NXD 2100, arrive N by 2250
WASH AND RENUMBER 406
406 as 2322 above Sats 177* (8 cars) 1623 off NXD, Whitechapel 1633½ stand spare Whitechapel 6, arriving N 19z03
176* manned spare NXD 1630 - 1845 z via washing plant * when 176 runs, 177 will be composed of 4 cars From this I would suggest that 406 were out and back to Neasden for a quick wash and scrub up; 407 were swaps. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 21:14:50 GMT
I should think the train would need a good wash after being full of Millwall fans  |
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Post by neasdena60 on Feb 5, 2009 13:16:56 GMT
at least one was run in the late 1990's for millwall v watford games.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 5, 2009 14:45:02 GMT
Now the East London Line has gone, are there many other routes on the system to set up between London club games?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 18:59:29 GMT
Now the East London Line has gone, are there many other routes on the system to set up between London club games? I don't think cross line operations are very likely to occur again, owing to staff route and stock training issues. However special additional timetabled trains operate for football matches that generate substantial passenger traffic. Trains do not operate to a specific pattern and can be worked as required (subject to Drivers hours, route training etc..) to the instructions of the Service Controller. eg. West Ham matches have two additional trains on a saturday 111 and 112. These usualy only work Upminster dt - Whitechapel and back. However it has been know for them to run through to Parsons Green when a west end football club is visiting. Chelsea games have two additional trains usually operating Parsons Green - Mansion House (with psoitioning trips to/from Ealing Common dt), but again I have known them to run to Plaistow. They also exist on some other lines. As a kid I remember travelling with my Father and Grandfather on a football special C stock from Wembley Park to Barking. |
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Post by suncloud on Feb 6, 2009 0:43:37 GMT
I don't think cross line operations are very likely to occur again, owing to staff route and stock training issues. Although some stock training issues will be reduced in a couple of years...  E.g. if West Ham were playing at Wembley a special could be run from Barking with an S7 driven by a H&C op, and hand over to a met op by Baker street... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2009 14:28:49 GMT
Bank Holiday Mondays are obviously a day for digging through my archives - here is my second archive-type post today, but on a different subject (the other was the Harlequin Line), which I hope will be of interest:
"After nearly 49 years (the service was withdrawn in 1939) a through passenger service has been reinstated using the St. Mary's Curve, but on an occasional basis.
It was apparently all to do with Milwall FC being promoted to the first division and therefore attracting a higher attendance. To ensure an orderly (as far as possible!!) departure of fans after the match, two 8-car A Stock trains work direct from New Cross Gate to Wembley Park. The two trains originate from Neasden depot and run empty to New Cross depot. The first then runs empty to Whitechapel platform 6, standing spare until required, then running empty to New Cross Gate to pick up supporters. The second train stands spare in New Cross depot, working via Whitechapel to New Cross Gate when required.
The first of these workings was on Saturday 3 September 1988 when Milwall were at home to Derby County. The first train, set 31, units 5052+5167, worked non-stop from New Cross Gate to Liverpool Street, then all stations to Wembley Park, while the second train, set 32, units 5030+5229, called additionally at Aldgate East.
The second occasion was on 17 September when the trains were numbered 175 and 176, but only one train actually operated.
On Saturday 1 October 1988 it was planned to run two six-car C Stock trains from and to Hammersmith because Milwall were playing Queen's Park Rangers but this was cancelled at the last moment and A Stock trains 175 and 176 were scheduled to operate instead.
The only restriction on the A Stock trains was that the two were not allowed to pass each other on St. Mary's Curve."
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 13, 2009 20:11:26 GMT
So would that 1st October 1988 entry have been the first time C stock would have gone on the ELL? Fascinating stuff! |
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Post by metman on Apr 13, 2009 20:17:51 GMT
I'm watching the Millwall v Peterboro game live now! I remember as a very young child seeing a C stock train in plat 1 at Wembley Park. I trust an 8 car C stock train has very been run? An 8 car A stock would have been a tight fit on the ELL!
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Post by dannyofelmpark on Apr 17, 2009 21:34:54 GMT
dont forget that video in the old museum P stock simulator had C stock on the east london line and that would have been from 1985
anyone have any info on that?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 17, 2009 22:34:03 GMT
An 8 car A stock would have been a tight fit on the ELL! I think the only places where an 8 car A stock definitely could not squeeze her shapely frame into was the platforms at New Cross and Shoreditch. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2009 20:39:13 GMT
You mean that a 8 car A60 could've run between Whitechapel and New X gate?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 18, 2009 22:27:58 GMT
well probably between Shadwell and New X Gate?
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Post by ruislip on Apr 19, 2009 0:51:00 GMT
What other stock operated these f'ball specials, in addition to A and C?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 19, 2009 7:53:38 GMT
Remember too, that the stock transfer trips New Cross Dpt - Neasden could and were run as 8 cars when needed.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 19, 2009 9:46:12 GMT
Yes they were very often run as 8 cars to save resources, although I don't know how long the platforms at New X Gate are?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 19, 2009 10:27:04 GMT
About 127m according to my notes; the front doors of an 8 car would be right on the edge of the level bit.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 19, 2009 10:55:59 GMT
Well that'll do, especially in those days!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 19, 2009 14:24:37 GMT
mrfs42, I'd be very interested to see your notes on platform lengths. My never ending quest currently stands at...well it doesnt really stand. Its kneeling quietly in the corner whimpering to itself. One day I hope to adapt a bycycle tube map to include platform lengths.
On the subject of the ELL platforms though, the shortest platforms are at Canada Water, taking 4 cars of 'A'. The rest can take 5 cars nicely, and 6 with end doors cut out.
So 'C' stock has run on the ELL then? Did any 6 car Ds run to New Cross Depot to stable at any point?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 15:52:54 GMT
All platforms on the East London Line (except the modern Canada Water) could accommodate six-car trains.
Indeed in the first LT Working Timetable for the ELL (No.35 - 13.11.33) the main service was trains to and from Hammersmith - 3 cars off-peak and six cars peaks. Shoreditch was served peaks only by three fur-car shuttle trains (91-93) every 8-11 mins running alternately NX and NXG, one of which stabled at New Cross Gate.
Fast forward now to WTT No.54 of 04.05.36, when the H&C trains to the ELL were reduced to peaks only (every 15 mins, alternately NX and NXG). Other H&C trains terminated at Whitechapel, with some peak trains going on to East Ham. The ELL MF off peak was provided by two-car shuttle trains (M-CT - or 'DT' if you are "met-minded").
Interestingly, this timetable saw the introduction of a 6-car train to Shoreditch.
Train 81 (MF), the 18.54 Hammersmith to New Cross, which formed 19.45 New Cross to Shoreditch, 19.59 Shoreditch to New Cross Gate and 20.19 New Cross Gate back to Hammersmith, and train 80 (SO), the 13.41 Hammersmith to New Cross, 14.33 New Cross to Shoreditch and 14.52 Shoreditch to New Cross (and thence to depot), were 6-cars. These were the only scheduled six-car trains to reverse in the single (northbound) platform at Shoreditch. These workings (plus train 72, 10.33 New Cross to Whitechapel and 10.48 Whitechapel to Surrey Docks) were also the only six-car trains to use the East London Line (low level) platforms at Whitechapel.
Two trains of District 'H' Stock was introduced from WTT No.58 of 03.05.37, complementing four Met Stock trains.
From WTT No.65 of 28.11.38 the six-car Whitechapel reverser and the MF six-car train to Shoreditch were abolished but there still remained one six-car train to Shoreditch on Saturdays (14.32 New Cross to Shoreditch and 14.47 Shoreditch to Surrey Docks).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 15:53:43 GMT
Third line "fur car" should read four car !!
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Post by dannyofelmpark on Apr 20, 2009 9:46:49 GMT
yes there was an underground news journal from 1989 stating that a six car d stock train had worked a football special on the east london line
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Post by Oracle on Apr 20, 2009 10:24:45 GMT
The 1980 D Stock Metroliner Tour also traversed the line and went into the depot from memory.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 9:21:27 GMT
I remember being told a district or h and c train took the wrong signal at st mary's curve and ended up on the ELL. Had to go the The Gate or The Cross to reverse. lol
As an ex ELL driver, I thought it was disgusting that we had 4 days to learn the route from Aldgate to Harrow-on-the-Hill but was given 4 weeks road training for the ELL. No wonder I went so slow going up to Neasden ;D
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