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Post by delticdave on May 22, 2006 14:30:05 GMT
Many years back, Dagenham East had two BR platforms, but for as long as I can remember, the trains never stopped there. Can anybody please enlighten me as to when they actually stopped because I can remember a cousin doing parcel deliveries from there in a 3-wheeled Scammel, but never got to find out exactly when trains stopped there to drop parcels off?
Talking of Dagenham East, I can remember the night of the train crash between East and Heathway as I was at a show and our next door neighbour who survived the crash, was taken to East station until he could get transport home. From what I recall, a District Line train crashed into some of the wreckage due to the thick fog on the night.
Advance thank you to anybody with the answer for me.
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Post by Tubeboy on May 22, 2006 15:07:00 GMT
BR trains stopped calling there in 1961, goods traffic [there was a chemical works nearby located to the East of the station] ceased in 1968.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2006 17:09:22 GMT
the Dagenham East collision report is available on the railways archive website - along with the Stratford rear end collison of 1953 and the Holland Park fire of 1958.
The District train in collision in the fog was only given a glancing blow by wreckage - could have been much worse ....
What amused me was that the report indicated trains on the LT&S running about 40 late which was regarded as "normal" or "reasonable" - for thick fog and manual semaphore signalling I suppose it was heroic that anything ran at all......
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2006 2:57:21 GMT
London fog in the 1950s was a dark yellow smelly beast, with all the gunk from house coal fires. At its worst, visibility was less than a yard. I can recall, at age about nine, having to walk along the street gutter, holding a tourch shining backwards so my father could follow in his car. Even with his headlights on, he could see nothing of the road.
And that was in Finchley: it would have been worse along the Thames estuary.
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Post by mandgc on May 23, 2006 5:58:44 GMT
Often in the 1950s if conditions were 'right' the fog would thicken in the evening after people had got home and stoked up their coal fires.
I can remember Bus conductors walking in front of one or two buses returning to Alperton Garage, There was usually a tail of cars following. (Hopefully the cars wanted to go to Alperton. I do not remember any exceptional delays of the trains to Hanger Lane. Presumably the Fog Repeaters were doing their job. There were Instructions for flares to be placed at the Driver's end of certain Platforms.
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Post by CSLR on May 23, 2006 7:34:26 GMT
People who remember these fogs will tell you that when they ventured out, there was a permanent burning feeling in their lungs. We should not forget that a number of people actually died of respiratory problems as a result.
Another feature of the fogs was the incredible silence.
Visibility of a yard is very short, but it is a fact - it really did get that bad at times. On some occasions, people genuinely could not see their own feet. Getting around was impossible if you did not know an area and, as a result, people tended only to follow routes that they knew well. Try walking around your house with your eyes closed and you will realise how difficult it is. Now imagine venturing out into London like that, with nobody to guide you.
Luckily there were fewer vehicles on the roads and the fogs proved to be a greater deterrent to motoring than the congestion charge.
With vehicles and people moving around blindly it should have been a recipe for disaster. Pedestrians could see the dull glow of bus and car headlights (when they were really close) but vehicles could rarely see pedestrians. This was because the fog acted as a wall that reflected light back towards the drivers, so the pedestrians were hidden behind that reflection.
Because bus drivers sometimes could not see the offside of their vehicle from the driving position, navigation through a road junction was extremely difficult and it was hit and miss where they would come out the other side. Without guidance, it was possible to get lost just passing through a crossroad.
One point worth considering is that going out into one of the London 'pea soupers' for 30 minutes probably raised more Health & Safety issues than we would now encounter in a year or two.
On the tube, I am told that a whispy smoke appeared as you approached a tunnel exit and then a sudden wall of fog as the train emerged into the open. Train whistles were used regularly when approaching stations - the unofficial convention apparently being to give a series of little 'toots' as opposed to a long whistle which would have signified that the motorman required assistance.
Hmmm. We appear to be reasonable on-topic for the forum, but off-topic for the thread. What do I do now?
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Post by Colin on May 23, 2006 12:06:24 GMT
Hmmm. We appear to be reasonable on-topic for the forum, but off-topic for the thread. What do I do now? The original question was answered - and now we have some extra background which I think is interesting reading........ Incidentally (keeping up another forum tradition  ), i've only had the 'pleasure' of driving a train in fog once - and compared to driving a car in fog, it was very scary!! Even though I know the District line quite well, I found it very hard to judge exactly where the platforms were. It's easier in the dark as the glow of the station lights help, but in daylight it's very surprising to see how much of the line you thought you knew well but actually don't  ;D |
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Post by delticdave on May 23, 2006 12:38:07 GMT
Thank you all for the imput. I found it all extremely interesting to read of your experiences. At the time of this Smog as it was known, I lived in a back road of Laindon, so know only too well what it was like and thank goodness we don't get quite so much of it these days.
Going back to the crash when the LTU train had a glancing blow, if I am correct, it happened quite close to the Butterkist factory. The chemical works just outside East station towards Upminster was May & Baker. They also had a plant in Norwich and I know that because I did some contract work there ** years ago. I hated the smell that surrounded that as well.
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Post by whoosh on May 23, 2006 14:17:21 GMT
You shouild read a book called 'The wheels used to talk to us' By Stan Collins published byTallis to get a real feel of how a tramwaymans life was similar to a tube train crews Fantastic book, although I've got the 1980 reprint by Sheaf publishing. If you can get hold of a copy or borrow one from a library it's well worth a read. QUICK EDIT: If you want to ask your library if they can get their hands on it. It was edited by Terence Cooper and the number is: ISBN 0 9505458 0 5. Incidentally (keeping up another forum tradition ), i've only had the 'pleasure' of driving a train in fog once - and compared to driving a car in fog, it was very scary!! I was quite surprised by this....until I thought about the differences between mainline drivers and underground drivers. I quite enjoy the challenge of driving in the fog, but on the mainline we have an audible warning in the cab on the approach to each signal (AWS) which helps. When I was training, my minder driver and I were taking a train through the fog one morning and he told me to slow down if I felt the need to. However, he pointed out that every day we slow down for the stations at the same places, feel every curve, clickety clack over each junction the same. If we were to slow down in the fog - at a slower speed the 'feel' of the route would be different - we could actually 'lose' where we were more easily. A tube driver has no AWS, and is more likely to be driving slowly between each station (close headway with the following train), I think getting a feel for where you are would be more difficult. You certainly earn your money in the fog - your eyes pick up every piece of visual information they come across, you're using your ears (like Stan Collins on his tram - he knew he was passing under a certain railway bridge in the blackout or fog as the trolleypole on the tram made a different noise), and you feel the movement of the train. It's a lot of concentration, and it's mentally draining. Route knowledge certainly comes in handy. Which reminds me: apparently there was once a manager where I work (before I started there) who couldn't understand the concept of route learning - he thought a driver learning a route was an unproductive driver who wasn't driving a train - and it is said, actually exclaimed once, "Why do they need to learn a route, all the stations have got names on haven't they?"   ;D ;D The book "Obstruction Danger" by Adrian Vaughan discusses the accident at Dagenham East but I haven't got it to hand at the moment. I think the driver mis-counted a signal in the thick fog. There was an early form of AWS on that line, but it was only at distant signals. |
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Post by whoosh on May 23, 2006 14:25:05 GMT
Oh, just remembered an amusing incident I read once about a cyclist who followed a tram in the fog. What he didn't know, was that the tram was out of service and returning to the depot.
The poor cyclist followed it and ended up in the inspection pit!
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Post by Tomcakes on May 23, 2006 14:36:36 GMT
Haha! Poor cyclist!
I think the accident at Dagenham East was not helped by the signalman running off to the toilet for 10 minutes, IIRC one of the drivers couldn't get incontact with him and so passed the signal at danger.
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Post by CSLR on May 23, 2006 14:46:22 GMT
Reminds me of the film Genevieve, where a cyclist supposedly gets his wheel trapped in a tram line and has to go all the way to the depot to free it.
When they made the film, they did not have the type of special effects that we do now, so they mounted the very heavy camera over the front wheel of a real bicycle and tried to keep it in the tramlines for a close-up of the action. As the wheel kept popping out, the viewer has to use some imagination to create an image of what is supposed to be happening on screen.
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Post by whoosh on May 23, 2006 15:10:30 GMT
I think the accident at Dagenham East was not helped by the signalman running off to the toilet for 10 minutes, IIRC one of the drivers couldn't get incontact with him and so passed the signal at danger. That's jogged my memory a bit. It was one of the signalmen along the route going home. He 'switched out' his signalbox as it was only open during certain hours. |
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Post by marty on May 23, 2006 16:14:55 GMT
That reminds me of the time where a Tram had it´s own "track bed" and a Friend of my brother was following it in the Fog, suddenly the Track Bed started, and the Tram didn´t have to put out the light signalising to stop, and so he crashed into the back of the Tram - and sued the Tram Company for not putting up signs saying "The Tram has it´s own track bed from now on".
Sorry for veering off thread but the word "fog and following trams" just reminded me of this story...
If staff feel this is too off thread - please delete it.
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Post by whoosh on May 23, 2006 17:01:48 GMT
I've found the report by Brigadier Langley of the Ministry Of Transport And Civil Aviation, into the Dagenham East accident on the web: www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Dagenham1958.pdfWhat's quite remarkable is despite very thick fog (visability 10 yards in places), the first ambulance arrived on the scene within 8 minutes! Also all lines were open for traffic in just over 18 hours. |
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Post by delticdave on May 23, 2006 18:48:03 GMT
Thursday 30th January 1958, this crash occurred and involved one LT&SR train running into the back of another. the 18.20 ex Fenchurch Street left 8 minutes down and at Dagenham the 18.35 crashed into the rear coach of the 18.20. Ten lay dead and 93 were injured, including the 18.20's Guard with 72 of those injured, requiring hospital treatment.
The 18.35 ran past Upney starting signal at danger in thick fog. Becontree signalbox had just closed while the 18.20 was approaching Becontree, and all signals there were left in the clear position. But with the 18.35 now in the section without authority its driver saw Becontree's green signals and caught up and collided with the 18.20 just before it arrived at Dagenham East.
As one kind correspondent added on here, a District Line train on an adjoining track was stopped opposite the crash when it struck debris from the collision. The line was not reopened until the following afternoon.
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Post by Chris M on May 23, 2006 18:59:26 GMT
Oh, just remembered an amusing incident I read once about a cyclist who followed a tram in the fog. What he didn't know, was that the tram was out of service and returning to the depot. The poor cyclist followed it and ended up in the inspection pit! Reminds me of a story my grandfather tells of driving an army jeep and getting it's tyres stuck in tramlines, necessitating a trip to the depot to get it out again! |
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Post by mandgc on May 28, 2006 0:29:10 GMT
I was not able to view the MOT Report on my computer so can someone let us know the Inspecting Officer's
finding of the cause of the Collision.
With the early form of 'ATC' (AWS) it seems to me the Driver failed to heed the warning at the Distant Signal and failed to see or heed the Home Signal. The clear signals , 'in section' as the box was switched out , may have misled the Driver but were a regular occurence on the LTS where intermediate Boxes were only switched in at Peak Periods.
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Post by mandgc on May 28, 2006 0:32:32 GMT
Fog/Smog.
'Pea Soupers' I remember but 'Smog' I thought came into use when Fogs were worsened by Car Exhausts.
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), i've only had the 'pleasure' of driving a train in fog once - and compared to driving a car in fog, it was very scary!!
;D
