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Post by drainrat on Sept 28, 2018 12:16:58 GMT
There is only 1 or 2 of the Central line Info assistants that I can really understand, the latest fella is very well spoken, though I don't remember his tones being that clipped when he was a driver down the drain
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Post by drainrat on Sept 28, 2018 11:09:39 GMT
Sorry, yes, new procedures have been, was due to trial tomorrow
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Post by drainrat on Sept 28, 2018 10:54:11 GMT
Called off
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Post by drainrat on Sept 28, 2018 10:52:14 GMT
Train staff will not strike and lose money if they feel the dispute is not justified Unions will not call strikes if they feel there is a risk of staff working through it after seeing both sides. Nonsense. The union can't call a strike unless it gets a "yes" vote from more than 50% of the members balloted (not just 50% of those members who bother to vote) and if staff didn't feel the strike was justified they wouldn't vote for it. And usually, the ballot only occurs cause the branches have asked for one. In a society where everyone bangs on about 'democratic process', I have to laugh when the media has a dig at one of the most democratic processes we have in Britain ๐ Re TSSA....oops! You'd never think that I was a member! Re controllers - That's simply not true as most of the Picc controllers are ex Picc T/Ops. Oh yes it is!
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:57:08 GMT
Yeah, would have to wait for complete clear road all through to Neasden now
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:40:45 GMT
The Jubilee line has been resignalled since then and, AIUI, Bakerloo Line trains would now require a possession (between at least Neasden and Baker Street, probably Wembley Park to Waterloo in practice) to get to and from Neasden depot. Or after all booked trains have left the line, sort of like a possession My memory is vague, but I think the movements up to Neasden in 1997 were after Jube and Met trains had stabled. Was done by the Elephant & Castle night crews who were working from Piccadily. Last Bakerloo NB went up, they'd take train(s) to Baker St and wait for last Jubilee to go north from Baker st before following them up to Neasden depot. Actually, come to think of it, when I did my stock training that year, I did it at Neasden depot. Fire training was done at London road
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:34:04 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table? So it would seem. They always have been. Train Managers and Duty Reliability Managers have their own ASLEF branch and reps on the MATS council (now, for the life of me, I can't remember what MATS stands for, but assume the M is for Management)
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:19:31 GMT
Last week I was chatting to one of the Piccadilly line Service Controllers. He was saying that one of the T/Ops complaints was that they donโt like the way the Controllers speak to them or give instructions over the radio. The RMT train side reps insisted that all Piccadilly line Controllers go on a course on โhow to speak to peopleโ or something of that ilk. However, the Controllers with their RMT and TESSA reps are refusing point blank to go on any courses. They believe theyโve done nothing wrong and are just doing their job. This could run and run. This reminds me of a line from Spike Milligans memoirs when he was before an officer on a charge. Officer: "Well Milligan what have you to say?" Milligan: "Well sir.........." Only to be interuppted by an NCO shouting: SILENCE WHEN YOU SPEAK TO AN OFFICER!" "I told you I was ill!"
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 15:54:24 GMT
Is there really anything left to discuss on this? I agree a lot will be speculation, but when someone does know what has gone on, it can't be spoken about.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 15:49:35 GMT
As for where would the trains go, not an issue, the last time London Road was taken out of use, stablers were sent up to Neasden via the Jubilee line ๐ The Jubilee line has been resignalled since then and, AIUI, Bakerloo Line trains would now require a possession (between at least Neasden and Baker Street, probably Wembley Park to Waterloo in practice) to get to and from Neasden depot. But they still have a colour light?
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 15:47:23 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table? They could be, it's quite the dichotomy
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 14:55:09 GMT
I totally agree, but we get to points that take many twists and turns, ultimately, it all depends on how it affects an individual/group. Whenever I went in to a meeting, my stance was always to debate for the side I represented, that is logical, it is also logical for the person taking the opposing agenda to debate against me. However, with the issue of industrial action, my experience over 25 yrs in the grade is that a ballot is the very LAST step, I have never known it to be threatened until talks have completely broken down, from my perspective(s) over that period I have never known a ballot to be taken without goading in the first instance from the other side to take strike action, c'est la vie!......when has their ever been a 'neutral' party?......on a deeper philosophical level, there isn't really, when battle lines are drawn, neutrality is almost impossible, even the Swiss took sides during WW2 ๐ How long do you think it takes from initial talks to strike action? On true neutrality, you may have a point! As for the stage needed for a ballot to be called or approved, I read what you say, but the public rhetoric from the rail unions, RMT in particular, gives a very different perspective on their approach to negotiation. I agree, but knowing personally some of the aggressive characters in the RMT, I get more a sense of utter frustration from them when I talk to them. Sometimes I do find myself shaking my head when I see them perform on the TV THOUGH
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 14:47:33 GMT
Ah, I used to call him 'Safety John' and saw your name so had to ask. I can see some similarities between White city depot and London Road, both had/have a 'secret garden' feel to them that could easily be enclosed somehow. As for where would the trains go, not an issue, the last time London Road was taken out of use, stablers were sent up to Neasden via the Jubilee line ๐
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 11:10:56 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? ๐ค I donโt. But I have a logical problem with the assertion that it is possible to know all about an issue by taking the view of one protagonist in that issue. I totally agree, but we get to points that take many twists and turns, ultimately, it all depends on how it affects an individual/group. Whenever I went in to a meeting, my stance was always to debate for the side I represented, that is logical, it is also logical for the person taking the opposing agenda to debate against me. However, with the issue of industrial action, my experience over 25 yrs in the grade is that a ballot is the very LAST step, I have never known it to be threatened until talks have completely broken down, from my perspective(s) over that period I have never known a ballot to be taken without goading in the first instance from the other side to take strike action, c'est la vie!......when has their ever been a 'neutral' party?......on a deeper philosophical level, there isn't really, when battle lines are drawn, neutrality is almost impossible, even the Swiss took sides during WW2 ๐ How long do you think it takes from initial talks to strike action?
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 10:20:16 GMT
.....that 'common sense' isn't 'common' at all, just relative hmmm ๐ค
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 10:12:49 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? ๐ค He wants to hear the managers side of things I suppose. Really, read any newspaper, media outlet to hear the managers side ๐
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 9:58:07 GMT
Westfield wasn't built over the old depot which was a lot closer to station than the new one. If memory serves the old depot closed about a year before the new one opened, if you built over London Road it would also have to close while building work was in progress meaning that there would only be four trains stabled south of Queens Park (two sidings and both platforms) I appreciate what you've written, and I agree entirely. I was involved in the fire and security systems at the new White City depot; it was always after that that I thought of all the main U/G depots, the footprints of land that they occupy and the possibility of building over them for housing/bus garages and the likes. I just wonder if anyone at TFL or a civil engineering company have had the same thoughts? Was it yourself who used to meet with us over the walkway systems at the new White City depot?
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 9:53:52 GMT
Yep I regularly read the RMT London Calling website. A neutral source... I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? ๐ค
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 9:46:15 GMT
Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective? I get most of my ASLEF communication through text messages, Twitter and Facebook while my depot has a Whatapps group. Yes, both the unions at Leytonstone have, we are all kept in the loop, and I know the RMT Finsbury Park branch are very vocal in their comms. When I was a rep, I found a lot of people had 'selective' hearing when it came to industrial action I'm afraid ๐
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Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 18:09:01 GMT
Is there a source that is both neutral and in possession of all the relevant facts in a dispute between a union and management (regardless of union, management or dispute)? In this case the RMT is not a neutral source and TfL is not a neutral source (despite tending to use less emotive language). And neither is a non.... As the saying goes "the truth is a 3 edged sword, there's my edge, there's your edge, there's the 3rd party edge, But the sword is the truth!" Management will feel aggrieved because staff don't like changes to conditions....... Staff (in general) will feel aggrieved because how the change etc. affects them, though some staff will side with Management for whatever reason..... Customers (passengers) will generally always side with Management, because they will usually only hear their side through the media..... True story, before station staff cuts strike of 2009, an irate passenger approached me at Epping to remonstrate 'ordering' me not to go on strike. I tried to explain to him what the strike was over, but he had already been bought on the gumph from the Evening Standard. The strikes occurred.... About a month or so later, the same passenger approached me at Epping, again remonstrating, but this time it was because there was no one there to deal with his problem(s). I reminded him of a couple months before and asked if he thought I'd been lying, and he said "Well, you obviously didn't fight hard enough then did you?!" Pretty much explains my whole experience of TU action on the underground. We ballot/strike.....media/management machine undermines the result and be under no illusion, they lie........public turns on us.......both public and us get royally f****d.......public blames us for being in the predicament ๐
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Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 9:04:48 GMT
Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality ๐ค Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective? I believe they do, but can't begin to compete with the cogs of the machine, of which they are a part of. I mean, look at the woman who walked straight on to the track at Baker st, whilst hypnotised by her 'cyber world', and looked elsewhere to blame cause she was so deep in trance, it couldn't have possibly been her fault, that's some heavy juju. Id also add, people talk about 'the unions' as an abstract, but if they pay their subs, they ARE the union ๐ the world is what it is, unions always will play catch up
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Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 7:41:46 GMT
Most of the group I work with at my depot haven't the first clue why the strike has been called. Most don't care but are willing to comply with the union for this strike call but will think long and hard if another is called. That's an interesting point, especially in view of the quote from the RMT (below): ". . .comprehensive breakdown in industrial relations, abuse of procedures and the reneging on key safety and operational improvements promised by management after previous โrounds of industrial action".A lot of fair pay and conditions were won by people willing to stand and fight the long fight, I think we are slowly accepting the new breed aren't willing to and thus all those items that made the job so attractive to them, will slowly be taken away. Be careful what you wish for ๐ I knew what the strike is over, same as what the ballots have been for on the Central line, it hasn't been a sudden surprise, but a build up that's been going on for past 2 yrs, and both unions have been very vocal about it too. Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality ๐ค
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Post by drainrat on Sept 23, 2018 10:50:29 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 23, 2018 9:48:16 GMT
To me, it stands for Train Crew Depot, not sure what it means in this reference but assume the 'D' is for diagram
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Post by drainrat on Sept 22, 2018 20:46:12 GMT
I seem to remember there being a few multi home signal areas in tunnel section on Bakerloo ๐ค Where? Iโve just had a look at the TCDs and canโt see any. There are a handful of draw ups at a limited number of locations. I was a driver there 20 yrs ago so my memory is shady, I'm thinking Paddington northbound, Piccadily south. I'm not disputing you're right, just my memory may be different from reality haha!
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Post by drainrat on Sept 22, 2018 15:49:04 GMT
Wont make cab more secure, these are easily 'bypassed' But they must make it that little bit harder to break in. Weve had these for a while on W&C line, and they are very easy to pull out and open, don't even need J door key either. Older doors system were always harder to get through, no J door key=No entry, for certain
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 13:52:29 GMT
For arrivals board, see 'phone' ๐
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 13:42:21 GMT
What the driver did, whether they did it correctly, and whether they were authorised to do it is or was also under investigation, but separately. I would be slightly surprised if this investigation had not been completed, but the outcome has not been made public (nor would I necessarily expect it to be). IMHO, I would think the Formal investigation (FIR) has yet to agree terms, as the TU reps involvement is agreed by the TUs. Procedure is very much at the forefront of the TU reps minds and once it was established, then depot report is considered. But can say the investigation is still going
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 13:22:05 GMT
So, if this is true, then it was a door irregularity, which explains why it's still being investigated, still. Speaking to several Jubbly drivers, procedure was supposedly carried out, and it seems clear the announcement was mistaken, the driver was only aware of no pilot light and the procedural announcement was heard as "the driver knew the doors were open......"....... This always had the potential when they changed the procedure 10+ yrs ago ๐ก Let's keep the speculation and heresay out of this please.Ok, but as a driver who was also a TU senior safety rep at the time the new procedure was proposed and subsequently imposed, there is no speculation or hearsay at all, this was an incident no less than "WE TOLD YOU SO!!!" I will also add that shortly after the T/Ops procedure was replaced with the current one, a Bakerloo driver was disciplined for insisting on going back and checking whole trains doors closed during AM peak when the pilot light went out and didn't come back on,. Knowing both the stock and procedures involved, the ambiguity of the whole thing leads to much speculation among drivers and contention during block training, basically, the T/op decides, thus a game of roulette ensues.....are they open.....or.....aren't they ๐ค
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 11:20:26 GMT
Two days after ballot result, S Stock already appearing with โplastic glassโ rather than ring-pull version. Wont make cab more secure, these are easily 'bypassed'
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