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Post by theblackferret on Jun 29, 2018 20:15:43 GMT
On the mainline one definition was that a station had goods and/or parcels facilities while a halt did not, but it depends who was doing the defining and when. A perfect example of which was just over the border from me in Cornwall-that part of the Gunnislake branch sawn off in 1966. Latchley and Chilsworthy stations or halts in particular;the latter was never staffed, yet once had a goods siding solely for loading strawberries and rabbits for London markets.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 29, 2018 15:55:52 GMT
You need to get RW Kidner's (Oakwood Press) Halts Of The Southern Railway. It was copied from the French, hence why it was originally spelt Halte. As to what the difference was between a halt & a station, several stations were never staffed, but were always designated stations, and, naturally, several halts were sometimes staffed, a few permanently staffed, and were always designated halts. There was also confusion between Railway Clearing House's nomenclature about what was a halt and what was not, compared to Bradshaw's timetable's take on the definition-bit like them there mediaeval conferences where all the Archbishops & Cardinals travel the length of Europe to discuss how many angels can dance on a pinhead. As to when Halt became station at Eastcote: EastcoteIf correct, that's 1910. I can't find anything on early Tube Maps(which don't show Uxbridge as it was Met only then & they weren't part of the Underground Group) or in Mike Horne's Capital Transport Series on The Met or Picc to suggest it was still being referred to as a Halt after that date.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 18, 2018 21:26:52 GMT
t697...No relentless advance of central heating in 1964. That didn't really come till the late 70s, after natural gas arrived. What did come in the 60s were electric storage heaters and fitted gas fires, both of which were permissible under the smokeless zones established piecemeal after the Clean Air Act of 1956. Also paraffin heaters were extremely common in the early 60s, and yes, I do remember the Esso Blue jingle. And they had Esso Pink as well, if memory recalls correctly. Esso stink might have been more applicable if the nasal memory is as accurate, though! Back on subject, the 1971 mentioned earlier rings a bell as the last freight run on LT metals, as does Lillie Bridge. Only query I'd have is whether 1971 was the Central Area's last freight & not the whole Tube network, reason being I read it some while ago & can't remember where now.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 1, 2018 21:13:48 GMT
Love the particulars-0.4 miles to the nearest station.
That's quite a leap over the garden fence!!
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Post by theblackferret on May 30, 2018 19:33:13 GMT
I had to check that it wasn’t April 1st. TFL have enough issues with their own system without worrying about one on a different continent. Well I am afraid that's sort of my reaction and that comes from someone who was "sold" by LU to go and do work in Australia on Cityrail's ticketing system back in the late 80s. TfL has lost a lot of qualified staff and flattened its organisation. I can't really see where a team of experienced and qualified staff would come from in today's LU without weakening what was left behind. As a related aside I was looking at the new Customer Service & Ops Performance report this morning. The worrying thing, in the context of LU, is that asset and staff performance (measured in lost customer hours) has been getting worse since 2016. Being my usual cynical self I am not exactly shocked at this given the enormous financial pressures on the organisation, investment cuts and loss of experience. I struggle to see how this "achievement" is a saleable proposition. The other big concern is how any contractual risk is allocated - what will TfL be "on the hook" for if things go wrong. There will be cultural and political differences and Argentina is not exactly "round the corner". I felt the Mayor's demand to recreate a "LT International" was the wrong thing to do now and I don't think my view has changed. It looks an "obvious" thing to do but I really don't think it's right when you're throttling the organisation whose "skills" you are trying to sell on the open market. This was fine when Holden & co helped influence the design of the Moscow Metro in the 1930's. But that was just one aspect of an exceedingly complicated operation. You can't safely or sensibly remotely manage train paths in Buenos Aries from London without intimate and immediate local knowledge at hand, for instance. How long, for instance, would our resident T/ops say it took them to learn 'the knowledge' involved in being able to drive a Tube train in any given area of LU? Must be months, I'd suggest, and the same learning curve, at least, would apply to running another Metro on another continent.
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Post by theblackferret on May 30, 2018 11:44:59 GMT
Does anyone else recall these electronic masterpieces from the 1960's & into the 70's?
From memory, they were on the Piccadilly line & maybe the Central, might have been others. They were housed in wooden or plastic casing from memory & were not much smaller than the standing ticket machines in size.
You pushed the button bearing the legend of the destination station whence you were bound, and a series of wee light bulbs sparked into action and showed you exactly how to get there, regardless of whether you were bound for glory, the next station on the line, or the exotic delights of, say, Ruislip, Leytonstone or even Rickmansworth.
Almost as much fun as Gottelieb Pinball machines to play, as well, apart from being free and well useful!
Hope there's one preserved somewhere!
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Post by theblackferret on May 26, 2018 19:58:16 GMT
Ali, thanks for your reply.
Maps showing the 1949 and 1965 proposals would be great. As an aside, the London Evening Standard has a web page about your map. I have commented on a few things there, although the comments are a bit of a mess as whilst some messages showed up immediately others took three days to appear, by which time slightly differently worded messages saying basically the same thing had been submitted. Their comments system does not include options to either edit or delete messages.
Simon
I'll definitely put the 1949/1965 maps on my list of future projects. I'm considering making a blog where I could put everything up, but I always get worried that no one will ever want to read it. Do you (or anyone) know where I can access the full text of the plans from 1949 or 1965 (or indeed any other fun ones that I could do)? A nice advantage of the 1946 plans was the text is freely available, in full online which helps a lot with understanding the details and the historical background. Well, you can either track a copy down as I did (£85!) of the bound plans with maps. Or, if it's just the text from the schedule to the report, the report itself and its' recommendations & finally the appendices, including London population distribution, we are talking 30 pages which I will willingly photocopy & send you via email or a series thereof, message me if you want to & I'll get something started.
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Post by theblackferret on May 22, 2018 11:32:28 GMT
The Camberwell proposal surfaced first in 1912/13. Then in 1926 & 1933 as well!! However, in the context of your splendid map, the proposal is irrelevant, because it next resurfaces in 1949. The original proposals all mooted an intermediate station at Wandsworth Road and a terminus at Denmark Hill--from your point of view, as it were, that changed to a possible intermediate station at Albany Road & now a terminus at Camberwell Green respectively from 1949, if that helps with the next map! Says he, born & bred in SE5
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Post by theblackferret on May 21, 2018 17:28:20 GMT
Cracking, alicarr! Let us know when the screensaver version is ready-would like this on my desktop, too!
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Post by theblackferret on May 11, 2018 19:27:16 GMT
Perhaps Roding Valley's includes staff-fainting if a passenger turns up? Staff? Oh yes, been quite a few station masters that way, sources tell me:
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Post by theblackferret on May 11, 2018 10:28:56 GMT
Perhaps Roding Valley's includes staff-fainting if a passenger turns up?
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Post by theblackferret on May 9, 2018 18:44:52 GMT
Thanks for another update & great set of photos.
Vide your lack of passengers. This will sound fiddly, but might solve it, feel free to laugh if not---------can you cut the carriage windows away to be seamlessly glued back on after carriage entraining?
If so, could you then use tweezers to pass passengers through to seats, said passengers having suitably-gluespotted posteriors?
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Post by theblackferret on May 2, 2018 17:55:29 GMT
Most of the reasons for the poor patronage of the Alexandra Palace branch in the 1950s still hold true today. The station was, indeed, well placed for the Palace itself but that has not been a major traffic generator for many years (its fortunes closely mirrored that of the Crystal Place branch in fact, although at least AP didn't actually burn down!) Most of the station's catchment area is a large park, which generates little commuter traffic. The main catchment is at the bottom of the hill, where the GN line station is. And that is on a much more direct line to central London than the circuitous route via Highgate. The line has been built on in places (two primary schools and a retirement home being the main obstructions). And it is doubtful there would still be enough capacity into Moorgate now the Welwyn/Hertford services use the line. Actually Ally predated its' elder sister in burning down by nearly sixty years. The original burnt down within two years of opening in 1873 & the place was closed four or five times more because of financial losses before the Great War, hence why the branch kept terminating at Muswell Hill! The one advantage Ally had was it opened on Sundays (when not actually shut down completely), which Crystal Palace resolutely failed to do for years when in its' zenith as a fashionable venue. EDIT For the benefit of pedants, Crystal Palace, re-erected from Hyde Park in 1854, had its' North Transept burnt down (and never replaced) in early 1867.
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Post by theblackferret on May 2, 2018 9:53:35 GMT
Whilst out viewing the northern end of the line today, a couple of questions have arisen which I know the knowledgeable gents on this forum will soon be able to satisfy. Firstly whilst at Mill Hill East I was unable to decide, one way or the other, whether the trackbed has ever gone beyond the current terminus? and secondly at East Finchley the two centre tracks appear well used but nothing appeared on them in the thirty or so minutes I was there which prompts the question as to what are they used for, and when? Thanks chaps, Regards Richard M. Look out for 'Northern Wastes' by Jim Blake, out of print but might be on Amazon, and the 'Disused Stations' web page, under 'E' look out for 'Edgware(GNR)'this will lead you to a good potted history of the branch. Northern Wastes is currently on Amazon (used) for 13.69 + p & p(£2.95), or on eBay, also pre-owned, for £7.99 and £1.99 postage.
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 10, 2018 11:27:18 GMT
Actually, given the house prices there, what are the odds on Higher or Upper Battersea being 'suggested' & then adopted before long?
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 9, 2018 17:50:39 GMT
Battersea Pink Floyd?
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 9, 2018 10:43:25 GMT
@iskanddweller It was I who posted re essential services and I took it as read everybody else would have included hospitals in that category-sorry I wasn't clearer on that. There are lessons to learn from New York in that a master plan for the next time it happens could be formulated, doesn't matter if it's one or ten years to the next time, because it's easy to assimilate what needs to be done from what was missing this time. I remember Boris cancelled every bus in London when a sudden snowfall hit, rightly or wrongly, so the power to implement was & presumably still is there. On another note re this train, the point superteacher professed we were missing strikes me to've been just how uncomfortably and possibly dangerously that train was loaded. As a matter of interest, has anyone else endured that before, outside of the Tube? And if the answer is, every blasted night on the 17:49, as far as East Croydon anyway, then something does need to be done on a default option.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 6, 2018 21:44:41 GMT
I still suspect too many people on that train didn't need to be there or at work in the first place, but just didn't pay attention to warnings about not travelling unless you had to. Unless you are in the essential services, can't you understand the sun isn't going to fall out of the sky if you can't make it in for a couple of days?
Also, do we know how many staff able to deal with that situation were unable to report for duty because they were snowed in? Do you know how far it's safe or sensible to go on foot if transport's down?
My first-hand experience of this was in 1987-both lines from Maidstone to London were blocked for a week. I could have got up from Strood by train if I could have got there, a mere nine miles from where I lived in Aylesford, but roads were blocked, too, no buses, main roads and country lanes littered with abandoned vehicles.
My section leader got up from Gillingham for the last three days of the week, each journey taking over three hours. So, when the admin boss (this was the Civil Service) said all those who didn't make it in were going to be docked a week's pay, he got hit with a lightning strike organised by yours truly. And backed down inside two hours!!
And the sun didn't fall out of the sky either.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 6, 2018 11:29:29 GMT
I understand from other sources that far from abandoning the incident train, in fact all available SE and NR staff were dealing with 4 other stranded trains. Organising a train evacuation is NOT a simple exercise with all sorts of procedures and actions needing to happen (you carn't simply grab the nearest railway employee regardless of what the press might think and say 'get on with it') made all the more harder by the prevailing weather conditions. Had more resources been available the yes, the incident may not have occurred- however people need to realise that the weather the UK experienced last week (and the rapid thaw over the weekend in some places) is NOT NORMAL. In fact the last decent amount of snow we had was back in the winters of 2010 and 2011 - thats 8 & 7 years ago, while if you want to go back further then we are looking at 1991s (27 years ago) or 1987 (31 years ago). In Scandinavia or Central / Eastern Europe heavy snowfall occurs EVERY YEAR - not once or twice in a decade, as such it makes financial sense to have extra resources plus equipment (that has to be maintained / serviced regularly if it is to work reliably when called upon) available. Yes, and when did the entire UK last get that sustained level of snowfall and sudden thaw as late as this time of year? 2010's didn't last long into February if I recall and I'm also struggling to remember any year where it both came so late and after so few earlier falls in December or January.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 4, 2018 23:12:29 GMT
So, Harrow-On-The-Hill's become the Venice of the Met.
Never thought I'd live to see it!
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 3, 2018 11:22:52 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43266245For a train that is only just outside the station, should it have taken so long? I'm not condoning anyone for leaving a train unless instructed by staff, but this seems to have been handled rather badly. From following this on BBC News last night, the TOC were tweeting that the delay was caused by rapidly-descending ice freezing the conductor rails. Whether that was conveyed to the passengers, I don't know, but given the advice from all & sundry about not travelling unless it was really urgent, you wonder how many people needed to be on it in the first place, especially as it was going to be a very restricted service at the very best. And because Mrs tbf has had a bad bug all week, I have had to trudge round to the corner store for three days in a row(she's the only driver) & now I'm full of catarrh! So whether I'm being a hypocrite in saying the above is open to conjecture, even if mine is half-a-mile on foot only! It's also worth bearing in mind that nobody ever makes allowance for the fact that train crew don't have some magic way of ensuring they get to work at all let alone on time that is not available to passengers!
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 24, 2018 20:06:37 GMT
Problem with this is, if you could let people know, when should you do so? Health & safety should preclude people milling about platforms before the train enters in order to be lined up for the carriage with most seats. Doing it once the train's in will obstruct detraining passengers in the resultant melee and will send dwell times through the roof. Announcing it once the train's away not too clever, either, especially if none of the migratory crowd are strap-hanging at the moment the train takes a sharp bend & they injure themselves in a fall. Whose responsibility? The problem described by norbitonflyer is another matter and another good reason for guards on trains.
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 21, 2018 21:21:19 GMT
"He is suing station operator Abellio Greater Anglia for £1.9m, claiming not enough was done to ensure safety" "Giving evidence, he told the judge that, although he had been commuting to and from the station for nine years, he had rarely heard "mind the gap" warnings" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43003680When I read the article a couple of weeks ago I thought it would get thrown out, it was his fault not Abellio's The law usually operates on the old established principle of 'What would the man on the Clapham Omnibus do/say/think?' This is another way of saying what would any reasonable person do. I would suspect the 'mind the gap' warnings are part of how the judgement came to be against him, but possibly more conclusive are the yellow lines, which most courts would adduce a reasonable person might notice or at least enquire what their purpose was, and therefore obey them. It's still sad and a shame, but I can't see how any other verdict could have been given. EDIt The reasonable idea also applies to the TOC of course. It might include assistance being readily available to those with sight difficulties and possibly, dependent on the location, warning signs or announcements being in several languages for the benefit of tourists.
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 18, 2018 10:24:58 GMT
Thanks for sharing.
You do realize you are creating a work of art as well here-performance art when it's running too.
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 16, 2018 21:31:44 GMT
It used to have its' own loop, which I think closed in 1968, as it only saw much use at FA & Rugby League Cup Final days.
Question is, is that line the loop, or did that open a little later-I think it did, but can't be sure.
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 9, 2018 15:38:30 GMT
I find it interesting that a number of heritage railways use diesels alongside the expected steam & some even run a quasi-commuter service on them.
Do we actually need electric on them anyway? I'd wonder if the expense of installing/reviving electric rails and maintaining/safeguarding them would actually be far more than adapting Tube stock via battery to run on ordinary rail.
Is it the UndergrounD experience per se we want to recreate or is it just the chance of riding on certain types of old carriages. These two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive of course, but which is more important to the potential passenger here?
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 27, 2018 21:56:40 GMT
Who got custody of The Edge? With Or Without You, let's return to the matter in hand........ Yes, it's quite amusing & is one thread that never needs bumping!! Seriously, isn't it amazing how a certain circus clown's idea was hailed as the greatest idea since Brunel & the GWR, without anybody sensing that, unless building commenced within a month, costs might just escalate the longer people wondered about its' viability? Of course, they could always ask Belting John to pen a song about it & raise a few bob towards construction.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 27, 2018 21:38:56 GMT
I was lucky enough to get to West Berlin on an Inter-Rail around the time some of the travel restrictions were eased for Germans. I went through at Checkpoint Charlie and spent an interesting time in East Berlin. It was really weird compared to West Berlin and with it being a Saturday afternoon it was extremely difficult to spend any money! Nowhere was open. Tried to get back to West Berlin via a different checkpoint and told that it wasn't possible so a slightly paniced escapade ensued to get back to Checkpoint Charlie and get out! I did ride on the U Bahn line that ran non stop through East Berlin where there were armed guards on the closed platforms to prevent escapes. A surreal experience. I got back to Berlin when the Wall was starting to come down - I even chipped a few bits off myself. Although more open there were vast areas without any development where the wall had been. You could see bullet holes in the buildings near the former border. I also travelled on the tram that ran on the abandoned U Bahn alignment between Nollendorfplatz and Bulowstrasse. There was a flea market in one of the disused stations - I had a fabulous Turkish kebab there. I am pleased that I got to Berlin when I did as I saw a fair number of disused railways, abandoned stations and undeveloped areas plus the start of the process of restoring East to West transport links and the merging of the BVB / BVG transport fleets. Places like Potsdamer Platz are unrecognisable from how they were when I first saw them. Berlin is one of my favourite cities - full of (difficult) history but great architecture, good culture, v interesting transport network. Like many cities it has had periods of struggle and decline alongside the good times. Not unlike London in many respects. Must go back sometime - if the exchange rate ever becomes vaguely decent again. Sincerely hope nobody in 'authority' at a certain Hertfordshire location reads this. Armed guards on the CassioParkStrasse overpass and further ones on the Maglev/Hova/TubeTram itself sound like a must.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 27, 2018 15:52:56 GMT
Red Rovers were 5/- for adults (as were Green Rovers) when first issued. Half price for children @ 2/6d Twin Rovers were 8/6d for adults I think "Golden Rovers" were 10/6d You're spot-on with Golden Rovers-my aunt used one in 1963(?) on a trip to us near Maidstone from her bunker base in Slough. Always wondered if the ticket title didn't actually refer to the sort of hound ladies like her were reduced to keeping in their reduced circumstances, instead of the usual Crufts-winning miniatures.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 25, 2018 20:50:05 GMT
If you wouldn’t mind, what about this and KX would you consider a wasted opportunity? In both cases, from my point of view, it was a wasted opportunity to build something sympathetic and in keeping with the existing structures. Functional boxes do the job but they're hardly inspiring pieces of architecture in such iconic areas. You sound exactly like the Inspectors of Ancient Monuments with whom I used to work at English Heritage, and their entrenched attitudes about having prefabricated ticket-booths or sales points hidden as fully as possible from the ruined castle or abbey in question. Battles between them & our presentation people were probably better 'fun' than any Sealed-Knot reenactments! And, just like them, you are exactly right.
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