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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 16:18:49 GMT
After a final look today at the new concrete and steel bases springing up everywhere on the District/NLL road to Richmond, I'm convinced now that NR intends to resignal the whole lot during the Easter Possession.
Judging from the positioning and number of bases I'm guessing that 4-aspect MAS (with the occassional repeater) is going in, at least on the up line. Do any District T/Ops have any further info to add?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 17:41:18 GMT
Yes, it is going to be resignalled. Apparently the signal cabin at Richmond will be abolished and control tranferred somewhere else.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 17:59:16 GMT
Interesting!
It seems to me that the only places to transfer such control are either (a) Feltham PSB, (b) Wimbledon PSB or (c) Bollo Lane Junction SB.
Is Network Rail doing this as part of a larger resignalling of the NLL?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 18:01:17 GMT
The NLL *needs* to be resignalled completely. All of these small boxes can't provide the type of capacity that the line needs - the signal sections are just too far apart...
Sam
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 18:03:39 GMT
You may already know this, but West Hampstead PSB was to be the North London signalling centre - the NLL, the MML, the Dudding Hill line and maybe even the DC lines were all to be controlled from the PSB. If you go inside it though it only contains controls for the MML; the remainder of the plan was not executed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 18:25:51 GMT
Interesting! Didn't know that!  Sam |
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Post by ikar on Mar 12, 2006 18:58:17 GMT
The Richmond control will probably go to Wimbledon (PSB/ASC how's it called now) since it controls Richmond (pfm 1,2) and pfm 3 has (or had) a small connection to them.
But I haven't heard anything about control transfer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 19:24:29 GMT
Nope.
Richmond signal box controls Richmond platforms 3 to 7 and the NLL to Gunnersbury Junction, where it works to Earls Court SCC and Bollo Lane Junction SB. Wimbledon PSB controls the Windsor route from London Waterloo to North Sheen level crossing via Clapham Junction, Putney, and Barnes Junction. Feltham PSB controls the Windsor route from the trailing crossover between the Windsor lines, all the way to Staines (and maybe the Windsor branch too).
Therefore, the transfer of Richmond control could ostensibly be to either Wimbledon PSB or Feltham PSB. Seeing as how Wimbledon already controls the bottom of the Wimbledon branch of the DR, transferring Richmond to the same mob might be beneficial to the Line Controllers when the service is up the wall.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2006 19:51:38 GMT
I dont think there is anything more planned than a like for like replacement "within the box" as the interlocking and cabling etc are all getting on a bit (I will check) - from memory there are 2 or 3 min headways Gunnersbury to Richmond.
I agree that the whole NLL needs resignalling - and the scope for it is being worked out at the moment - you have long sections Gospel Oak - Willesden and Hackney - Dalston. The plan (if achieved) is to resignal throughout Stratford High Level to Willesden High level with a much improved headway of 3/4 mins (that means a lot more signals and logically placed ones at that) - lot of work to do on this yet - let alone working out where the control transfers to.
Back in the 1980s - the plan was to put the lot - including the Dudding Hill and NLL line onto a super box at Willesden - the old (1988/9) Willesden Suburban box which controlled the DC line was only meant to have a short life - hence its portakabin type ambience. (and leaky roof) - it ddint last long as an IECC - and was redone last year and control transferred to the "new" Wembley box.
I dont think West Hampstead was ever a contender for the NLL control - and that in itielf is getting a bit old now - time flies !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2006 22:35:46 GMT
I dont think there is anything more planned than a like for like replacement "within the box" as the interlocking and cabling etc are all getting on a bit (I will check) - from memory there are 2 or 3 min headways Gunnersbury to Richmond. That's 20tph (worst case). I suppose then that the impending reorganisation of NLL services by TfL means that someone stumped up the cash to increase the paths available to the very useful five-platform terminus at Richmond. I wonder if there are any plans available on the resignalling... I agree that the whole NLL needs resignalling - and the scope for it is being worked out at the moment - you have long sections Gospel Oak - Willesden and Hackney - Dalston. The plan (if achieved) is to resignal throughout Stratford High Level to Willesden High level with a much improved headway of 3/4 mins (that means a lot more signals and logically placed ones at that) - lot of work to do on this yet - let alone working out where the control transfers to. Indeed. Given that West Hampstead was supposed to have been built to a size capable of supporting control of all of the North London lines (even though I can find absolutely no evidence of where I read this), I suppose transferring the controls of the majority of the NLL there would be somewhat sensible. Back in the 1980s - the plan was to put the lot - including the Dudding Hill and NLL line onto a super box at Willesden - the old (1988/9) Willesden Suburban box which controlled the DC line was only meant to have a short life - hence its portakabin type ambience. (and leaky roof) - it ddint last long as an IECC - and was redone last year and control transferred to the "new" Wembley box. I dont think West Hampstead was ever a contender for the NLL control - and that in itielf is getting a bit old now - time flies ! Again, I was certain that West Hampstead was once meant to be much larger than it is now, but naturally I can't find mention of this anywhere... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2006 19:17:18 GMT
Plan "A" for NLL is what we call the 4 plus 4 - 4 Richmond and 4 Clapham (from Stratford) - more to come downline of course.
When NR change the infrastructure / resignal - they issue something called a Network Change Document for consultation - not sure one has been for Richmond - but if I get time will check and revert.
PS treid to get the line speed up over Gunnersbury Junction - but it was too late to get the spec changed for the switch and crosing work - missed opportun ity there I am afraid.
Dont worry about the intricacies of West Hampstead and control areas - there were plans back in the expansionist 80s to control the whole West Coast from Birmingham - so there woujd have been a truly interesting interface with Victoria box (at Clapham) talking to someone in Brum about a stalled train at North Pole Jct. on the WLL !
The N L Lines (including Gospel Oak - Barking) is the last multi box controlled "trad" area in inner London I can think of - covering almost all sorts of technology from mechanical to IECC with ARS. Thankfully - technology gives you overview screens for controllers and traincrew managers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2006 20:24:38 GMT
Plan "A" for NLL is what we call the 4 plus 4 - 4 Richmond and 4 Clapham (from Stratford) - more to come downline of course. That's still only 10tph from Richmond to Gunnersbury - you could do that with the existing MAS. Curiouser and curiouser... When NR change the infrastructure / resignal - they issue something called a Network Change Document for consultation - not sure one has been for Richmond - but if I get time will check and revert. Please do - given the rather low usage of the NLL, it seems to me that something else must be planned for the route - something that is going to take a lot of paths... I remember reading once that a running connection was intended at Richmond between the Windsor lines and the NLL, for some sort of passenger service to and from Kingston... PS treid to get the line speed up over Gunnersbury Junction - but it was too late to get the spec changed for the switch and crosing work - missed opportun ity there I am afraid. I can't imagine how you would do that anyway - the junction is hemmed in on all sides by a bridge span, the BSI, a new housing development and the Gunnersbury Triangle; there's no space for improved curvature... Dont worry about the intricacies of West Hampstead and control areas - there were plans back in the expansionist 80s to control the whole West Coast from Birmingham - so there woujd have been a truly interesting interface with Victoria box (at Clapham) talking to someone in Brum about a stalled train at North Pole Jct. on the WLL ! Yeah, that would have been a good idea... The N L Lines (including Gospel Oak - Barking) is the last multi box controlled "trad" area in inner London I can think of - covering almost all sorts of technology from mechanical to IECC with ARS. Thankfully - technology gives you overview screens for controllers and traincrew managers. There are other routes too - the Dudding Hill line from Kew Junction on the Hounslow loop to Cricklewood is all signalboxes, as is the Tottenham and Hampstead line. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2006 21:08:35 GMT
I agree that the whole NLL needs resignalling - and the scope for it is being worked out at the moment - you have long sections Gospel Oak - Willesden and Hackney - Dalston. The plan (if achieved) is to resignal throughout Stratford High Level to Willesden High level with a much improved headway of 3/4 mins (that means a lot more signals and logically placed ones at that) - lot of work to do on this yet - let alone working out where the control transfers to. I have to say that from playing the SimSig NLL, this really is the case. I seem to be getting blocking back when everything is running on time. Then, as soon as it all goes 'wrong', I have no spare track to use to help get things back together - the problem just proporgates across the whole line. Not being from London, I don't know if this is true in reality. If it is, resignalling is a must! |
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Post by solidbond on Mar 16, 2006 15:09:55 GMT
regarding the original question about whether the Richmond road is to be resignalled, and then mention about whether Richmond box will close, I found the following in the SimSig forums, from someone who is, IIRC, a signaller on the NLL ;D
This reply was posted in answer to a question about whether Richmond box was to close.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 15:35:04 GMT
Does this person know why there are new signal bases being installed? I must confess to being confused as to why NR would install huge numbers of signal bases and then not use them for anything...
(and I know they are signal bases, as a similar one has appeared at Marylebone, and I know that area will be slightly resignalled)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 15:40:08 GMT
Well, I'm glad to hear that.
Just shows that you shouldn't believe everything a DMT tells you!
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Mar 16, 2006 17:33:07 GMT
Just shows that you shouldn't believe everything a DMT tells you! Or should that be anything a DMT tells you?  ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by silverbaz on Mar 18, 2006 19:51:28 GMT
Nope. Wimbledon PSB controls the Windsor route from London Waterloo to North Sheen level crossing via Clapham Junction, Putney, and Barnes Junction. Feltham PSB controls the Windsor route from the trailing crossover between the Windsor lines, all the way to Staines (and maybe the Windsor branch too). Feltham Area Signalling Centre does indeed cover the Windsor branch and also covers the Reading line as far as Martins Heron/Bracknell where Wokingham signal box takes over as far as Reading spur junction. Reading box covers from spur junction to 4A & 4B. Feltham also covers as far as Chertsey/Addlestone on the Weybridge line and Woking takes over from there. Ascot - Guildford services are also covered as far as Frimley. I believe Feltham panel also covers the Kingston loop (part of) , Shepperton branch and part of the Hounslow loop. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 11:42:10 GMT
Well, the 'Gunnersbury blockade' apparently went very well and possesion was given up on time this morning, however it seems all is not well! From the LUL website: DISTRICT LINE: Suspended between Turnham Green and Richmond due to a signal failure at Gunnersbury.
Message received 11:58am OOPS!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 18:01:18 GMT
Well I went to Richmond twice today and both times I was rear-tripped on the westbound between Turnham Green and Gunnersbury.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 17:19:41 GMT
rear-tripped?
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Post by c5 on Apr 10, 2006 17:41:58 GMT
This is when the rear trip-cock (on the other side of the train) is "tripped". This can happen if there is a signal/fixed red light for the other direction, as the Train Stop associated with that signal, will not have lowered. This is also likely to happen if a Signal was returned to Danger as the train is passing by and the trip-cock happens to "hit" the Train Stop. I think that makes sense.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 17:46:52 GMT
Also, could be caused, tho most rarely, by ballast piled too high, dislodged cable troughing covers...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 17:48:41 GMT
This is when the rear trip-cock (on the other side of the train) is "tripped". This can happen if there is a signal/fixed red light for the other direction, as the Train Stop associated with that signal, will not have lowered. This is also likely to happen if a Signal was returned to Danger as the train is passing by and the trip-cock happens to "hit" the Train Stop. I think that makes sense. The first part is true, the second part is not likely AFAIK. In this case though there shouldn't be ANY wrong-road trainstops in the area, as there are no wrong-direction signals in place between TG and Gunnersbury. So I'm a bit confused as to what would have caused a rear-trip. |
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Post by c5 on Apr 10, 2006 17:55:39 GMT
I think my Central Line colleague migt have it - The ballast piled to high or some other track-side debris (this is Network Rail)... TOK- Trains can be rear tripped by a Signal Operator (or failure) if a signal is returned to Danger too early, though I haven't yet done that. This is beacuse, once you return the lever to normal/mid, it will bring the other Train Stops back up, or something like that. I have been about when this has happened, but its all getting a bit too technical!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 18:06:00 GMT
I think my Central Line colleague migt have it - The ballast piled to high or some other track-side debris (this is Network Rail)... Indeed. I have heard stories of tripcock-equipped locos that once ran on the Widened Lines coming to a grinding halt in the middle of nowhere because the previous driver activated the tripcock TOK- Trains can be rear tripped by a Signal Operator (or failure) if a signal is returned to Danger too early, though I haven't yet done that. This is beacuse, once you return the lever to normal/mid, it will bring the other Train Stops back up, or something like that. I have been about when this has happened, but its all getting a bit too technical! Hmmmmm. Taking OP as an example, whenever you or your colleagues signal a reverser into the center platforms from the inner home signal (OPbungle), the trainstops for platforms 2 and 3 drop whenever the timing circuit senses the approach of the train over the crossover; after the last wheel of the train clears the blockjoint for the starter signal, the trainstop goes back up. Are you saying that by restoring the lever to mid-frame, you can cancel the timer circuit after it has triggered and leave the starter's trainstop up? |
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Post by c5 on Apr 10, 2006 18:27:07 GMT
Outer Rail Inner Home is OP33-35 (You're slipping TOK! ) I think that if the Inner Home is put back too early, it will trip the train. I know it has happened with the Fixed Red Light on platform 4 before, which is to do with OP4. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 18:57:10 GMT
Outer Rail Inner Home is OP33-35 (You're slipping TOK! ) I went digging first - apparently no one has posted any diagrams of Edgware Road yet  I think that if the Inner Home is put back too early, it will trip the train. I know it has happened with the Fixed Red Light on platform 4 before, which is to do with OP4. But how would OP33/34/35 trip the train? The eastbound line at the junction is not bidirectional; there shouldn't be any wrong-road trainstops present to rise and rear-trip the train. I can believe that a trainstop-equipped FRL would rear-trip a train, though. |
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Post by c5 on Apr 10, 2006 19:16:57 GMT
Outer Rail Inner Home is OP33-35 (You're slipping TOK! ) I went digging first - apparently no one has posted any diagrams of Edgware Road yet I think that if the Inner Home is put back too early, it will trip the train. I know it has happened with the Fixed Red Light on platform 4 before, which is to do with OP4. But how would OP33/34/35 trip the train? The eastbound line at the junction is not bidirectional; there shouldn't be any wrong-road trainstops present to rise and rear-trip the train. I can believe that a trainstop-equipped FRL would rear-trip a train, though. OP33-35 could trip a train on OP5, OP6 or pfm1 FRL. Will have a look when I am next there, later this week. I will stop now, as I am starting to confuse myself  Oh and I found this pic www.anorakheaven.com/photos/erd01.jpg , nowt like that now. |
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Post by Colin on Apr 11, 2006 0:42:17 GMT
I have part of a scan of the Parsons Green area (which I know better) - I think i'll be able to explain better what you are both trying to confuse us all with ;D ;D ;D  When talking about back tripping, you have to remember that the trip arm at the rear of the train is still lowered as per when it travels in that direction.Now to Parsons Green: As a train arrives in platform 2 (eastbound), it's pressence is 'sensed' and the train stops associated with WF6 & WF4 will lower as the train passes them. Once the train is fully berthed, the train stop associated with WF6 will rise to protect against a 'wrong direction movement'. Now, for arguments sake, let's say shunt signal WF34 is cleared in error. The signal operator takes a release (putting WF34 back to danger). After 2 minutes the signal operator can clear signal WF38 and the train can continue - but it will be backed tripped. The reason for the back trip is that when the release was taken, the train stop associated with WF4 rises back to it's normal position. Hope that helps!! |
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;D ;D ;D
