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Post by londonstuff on Jul 29, 2008 21:26:49 GMT
I was at Euston station this evening on the southbound city branch and got a peek at an out of service train [that people still tried to board, quelle surprise!], which went to a siding to the right of the through running track.
Does anyone know where this goes (if anywhere!) and if not, where it would turn around - there doesn't seem to be a lot else around at that part of the station. Is this used often?
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Post by Chris M on Jul 29, 2008 21:34:34 GMT
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 29, 2008 21:55:10 GMT
Anyone know why this would be used during passenger hours - defective train maybe?
Is the crossover to the Picc line used often?
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Post by Chris M on Jul 29, 2008 22:07:14 GMT
I suspect the crossover to the Pic is used only for stock moves and engineering trains. As it was presumably a 67 stock you saw, I think we can rule out an engineering move.
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Post by c5 on Jul 29, 2008 22:19:59 GMT
The "loop" as it is known is used to reverse and lay over Northern line trains. However, it does require a Service Operator to be available on the King's Cross (Piccadilly) Desk at Earl's Court, in order to signal it in.
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Post by swedishblue on Jul 29, 2008 22:24:03 GMT
Once detrained, you go into the Euston loop. When the appropriate shunt signal clears, you cross over the Northbound line and into the Kings Cross loop. You then stop at a shunt signal (can't remember the number but it takes you onto the Picc line), change ends, and come back into Euston City NB platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 22:34:10 GMT
The Euston loop connects the NB/SB City branch of the Northern Line. The connection from the NB City is just north of King's Cross platform, but between King's Cross NB Northern platform and the points for the Euston loop, the King's Cross loop (to from the Piccadilly Line) comes in from the left.
What is now the "Euston loop" used to be the former northbound City line, before the current deviation was built (in 1967). The present southbound City platform (No.6) is very wide but had the honour of being a narrow island platform like Clapham North/Common and Angel until then. At the north end of the present (wide) platform 6, behind closed doors there is access to the former Euston "Interchange" subway and former lifts.
There used to be regular Euston reversers in off-peak times until the deviation opened in October 1967 and at the south end of the station there was a scissors crossover and points leading to a siding, which used to be used for stabling overnight.
Up to the introduction of WTT No.11 in 1959, there used to be some Euston reversers (north to south) in the peaks as well.
Having spent many years as a Traffic Controller, the train was probably either (a) defective or (b) being short-tripped north to south. I have had the honour of 'short-tripping' many trains south to north there, especially in the days when 20-30 cancellations per peak were the norm (1970s).
Trains detrain in platform 6, proceed empty through Euston loop into the King's Cross loop and reverse there. They are then out of the way and can wait for their next schedule northbound trip without any inconvenience to the service (apart from holding up the NB City while the move is made in the first place).
Very rarely did I reverse trains north to south (i.e. run direct from King's Cross into platform 6 SB City at Euston) - only when it was really necessary, as it deposited passengers in the wrong place for their onward journey. It was thus very desirable to get such trains "called over" by station staff before leaving KX NB City (no PA on the 1938s or 1959s then).
I am almost 100% sure that the train involved would not have been 1967 Stock as there is no connection with the Victoria Line and, to the best of my knowledge there would be no logical reason for it to be on the Northern Line. The only impending move of a 1967 Stock away from the Victoria Line maybe this Friday to Ealing Common/Ruislip.
Hope this helps.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 29, 2008 22:39:19 GMT
I am almost 100% sure that the train involved would not have been 1967 Stock as there is no connection with the Victoria Line and, to the best of my knowledge there would be no logical reason for it to be on the Northern Line. The only impending move of a 1967 Stock away from the Victoria Line maybe this Friday to Ealing Common/Ruislip. Erm, I did of course mean 1995 stock. I can offer no explanation for my error other than 2½ glasses of red wine  |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 29, 2008 22:41:22 GMT
Nowadays, trains which are being reversed north to south at Euston are normally detrained at Kings Cross to prevsent the passengers from being dumped on the wrong side of the station at Euston. 95 stock does have a "Kings Cross" destination available.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 29, 2008 23:42:18 GMT
There used to be regular Euston reversers in off-peak times until the deviation opened in October 1967 and at the south end of the station there was a scissors crossover and points leading to a siding, which used to be used for stabling overnight. Indeed, from memory nearly every diagram would make it as far south as Tooting, turnback there and have a short trip to Euston and back down, finally getting into Morden. Many people remember the 'Central shorties'; but the Euston reversers were a very convenient way of maintaining the the theoretical service pattern off-peak when Morden was full without clogging up the siding at Kennington - however, I would be chary of placing too much emphasis on this comment as I need to analyse further Northern WTTs of the era - I've only looked at detail in a non-typeset copy of WTT 7. At some point insomnia will strike and I'll look at WTT 4. Up to the introduction of WTT No.11 in 1959, there used to be some Euston reversers (north to south) in the peaks as well. I may be conflating my memories, but the last one I can consciously remember analysing with peak/busy Euston reversers were from Northern WTT 141 - which I think comes from 1947. I think I feel a close look at WTT 4 in the offing - however I'm going to wander off to bed with Central 10. ;D |
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Post by ruislip on Jul 30, 2008 2:15:27 GMT
There used to be regular Euston reversers in off-peak times until the deviation opened in October 1967 and at the south end of the station there was a scissors crossover and points leading to a siding, which used to be used for stabling overnight. Up to the introduction of WTT No.11 in 1959, there used to be some Euston reversers (north to south) in the peaks as well. I guess none of this will be re-introduced in the future, whether or not the Northern gets split into two lines? |
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Post by ruislip on Jul 30, 2008 2:16:49 GMT
Many people remember the 'Central shorties' Were those the off-peak Liverpool St-Marble Arch and Leytonstone-White City offerings? |
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 30, 2008 7:33:56 GMT
Many people remember the 'Central shorties' Were those the off-peak Liverpool St-Marble Arch and Leytonstone-White City offerings? Yes, indeed they were. |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 30, 2008 8:05:41 GMT
I am almost 100% sure that the train involved would not have been 1967 Stock as there is no connection with the Victoria Line and, to the best of my knowledge there would be no logical reason for it to be on the Northern Line. The only impending move of a 1967 Stock away from the Victoria Line maybe this Friday to Ealing Common/Ruislip. Why will a 67TS go to Ealing Common or Ruislip? |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 30, 2008 8:40:06 GMT
I am almost 100% sure that the train involved would not have been 1967 Stock as there is no connection with the Victoria Line and, to the best of my knowledge there would be no logical reason for it to be on the Northern Line. The only impending move of a 1967 Stock away from the Victoria Line maybe this Friday to Ealing Common/Ruislip. Why will a 67TS go to Ealing Common or Ruislip? 67 stock, for the past few years, have been overhauled at Acton Works, so would need to get there via connection at Finsbury Park (Vicc to Picc). Can't see why it would need to use the Northern though. |
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Post by trc666 on Jul 30, 2008 12:39:05 GMT
It won't need the Northern at all. Just needs the facing connection at Finsbury Park and a reverse at Acton Town.
Going back on topic, Euston reversers (from Kings Cross) still occasionally do it in service (i.e. not tipping out at KX first), I have been on such a train, passengers can be carried through the Euston loop.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 30, 2008 20:48:33 GMT
Going back on topic, Euston reversers (from Kings Cross) still occasionally do it in service (i.e. not tipping out at KX first), I have been on such a train, passengers can be carried through the Euston loop. Out of interest, how often is the Euston loop used in such a manner these days? Every other day, weekly; that sort of thing? |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 30, 2008 23:00:51 GMT
It won't need the Northern at all. Just needs the facing connection at Finsbury Park and a reverse at Acton Town. Going back on topic, Euston reversers (from Kings Cross) still occasionally do it in service (i.e. not tipping out at KX first), I have been on such a train, passengers can be carried through the Euston loop. Yes, they do still occasionally run to Euston in service, but this usually happens when the service is suspended north of Euston for some reason. If it is just one train being reversed for late running, then it will be detrained at Kings Cross. |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 31, 2008 9:49:21 GMT
What is the reason it would be detrained at Kings Cross? Wouldn't it be at the platform at Kings Cross for longer, and delay the train behind?
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Post by Chris M on Jul 31, 2008 9:54:31 GMT
If you detrain the passengers at Kings Cross, those wanting to go further north just need to wait on the platform.
If you take them to Euston, they need to cross from the southbound platform to the northbound, which since the reconstruction for the Victoria Line is not simply cross-platform.
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 31, 2008 10:03:09 GMT
Why not have a announcement that tells people who want stations past Euston to change at Kings Cross, so that passengers who are going to Euston don't have to change trains at Kings Cross.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 31, 2008 13:42:04 GMT
I would imagine that if there is no pre-recorded announcement that the t/op would make one manually, as I have heard done at Barbican, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf Jubilee for trains terminating at Moorgate, Aldgate and North Greenwich respectively.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 31, 2008 17:37:20 GMT
I would imagine that if there is no pre-recorded announcement that the t/op would make one manually, as I have heard done at Barbican, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf Jubilee for trains terminating at Moorgate, Aldgate and North Greenwich respectively. Which is fine, but not all drivers bother! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 12:55:10 GMT
Why not have a announcement that tells people who want stations past Euston to change at Kings Cross, so that passengers who are going to Euston don't have to change trains at Kings Cross. You may want the train to be held in Euston loop for a while before routing it into the SB platform, in which case detraining at Kings Cross is the best move. And I've tried to use this move before now and had the signal fail and the train was stuck in Euston loop for ages - I was SOOOOOOO glad it was empty! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 12:57:47 GMT
Having spent many years as a Traffic Controller, the train was probably either (a) defective or (b) being short-tripped north to south. I have had the honour of 'short-tripping' many trains south to north there, especially in the days when 20-30 cancellations per peak were the norm (1970s). Good heavens 20-30 cancellations in the peak! I have to say (as a current controller on the Northern line) that heads would be rolling everywhere if we had this many cancellations without a very, very good reason. Times have changed! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 17:15:19 GMT
Indeed times have changed. It all really started in the late-1960s with the craftmen's strike at Acton, which affected the 1938 Stock very badly. Many trains were reduced to six cars and many were cancelled on both the Bakerloo and Northern.
Once this had been resolved (not fully, because 6-car trains continued into the mid-1970s even after the withdrawal programme had commenced), then there was the great shortage of guards, which affected all lines except the Victoria, the Northern and Bakerloo the worst - again! In addition to the 20-30 cancellations in the peaks, there could be as many as 20 off-peak, with pages of uncovered duties to sort - what to trains to take out, what to bring in, and whether that were due to go out could be reformed onto one due in.
As a fairly new Controller on the Bakerloo, which originally had 47 trains for service (reduced to 45 mid-1960s), 1973/4 was an 'E' series, which had reduced right down to 32. One evening peak, I had 15 of those cancelled because of no guards - just 17 trains for the whole line (E&C-QP/STA plus 4 to WJ).
Worst of all on a Saturday night in 1973/74 were the Bakerloo, Northern and Met, although the other lines had their problems too. You could end up with just one Circle on each road, maybe three H&Cs, one or two Uxbridges/Watfords, and half a dozen or so on the whole Bakerloo.
I could go on, but had better not write my memoirs here .....
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 1, 2008 18:41:39 GMT
As a fairly new Controller on the Bakerloo, which originally had 47 trains for service (reduced to 45 mid-1960s), 1973/4 was an 'E' series, which had reduced right down to 32. One evening peak, I had 15 of those cancelled because of no guards - just 17 trains for the whole line (E&C-QP/STA plus 4 to WJ). E60, came into force 8th October 1973: before there is too much thread drift I'd better point out that the Northern WTTs of that era were A27, 13/11/72; B27, Feb '73 (handwritten) and C27 (Saturdays) July '73. The main WTTs were progressively reissued as less and less staff were available. |
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Post by Oracle on Aug 1, 2008 19:42:32 GMT
6-car trains continued into the mid-1970s I once photographed a mixed 6-car Bakerloo at Wembley Park NB, with one unit in bus red, the other in train red! The Bakerloo in the times you mentioned was notorious for its poor service and gaps between trains were horrendous. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2008 14:26:34 GMT
I could go on, but had better not write my memoirs here ..... I for one am not complaining - it's interesting to see how different things used to be. Now managers get upset if trains are cancelled for the "snapshot" times even if there's a good reason for it! |
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