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Post by antharro on Jul 27, 2008 15:15:38 GMT
I've traveled in and out of Liverpool St. hundreds of times, coming in from Hertford. And I always wondered where Shoreditch station was. So some time ago, I pulled up Google Maps and took a look. Now, I know long ago that Shoreditch had a connection to Liverpool St, so I can only assume that the level of the the track at Shoreditch and the level of the mainline tracks are the same, or close enough. But despite numerous attempts on journeys both in and out of Liverpool Street, I've never managed to actually see where the tracks would've joined. So here's my take on it: link to Google Maps with annotations. Click "Satellite" when it loads and you'll see what my green lines are referring to. I guess it hasn't helped that the trains I take into Liv.St. usually came in to the lower numbered platforms, so when I went past Shoreditch, I was on the wrong side of the tracks! Abandoned Stations shows a picture (8th photo down on that page) of "view westward from the station building showing the GER tracks into Liverpool Street", where it's obvious where the track from Shoreditch joined the mainline tracks, so they must be on the same level.... am I missing something here?! Are the two sets of tracks on the same level? |
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Jul 27, 2008 17:20:38 GMT
Having been interested years ago in the connections into the British Railways at New Cross and NC Gate, I naturally wanted to know more about the connections near Liverpool Street. I have not seen any photos of the junction but it must have been a dual-track one, and the connections curved heading Up/NB towards the main line station: trains for the SR had to reverse at Liverpool Street to access the ELR. And vice versa. I would be interested to know more. I assume that the platforms used to reverse were accessible from the north.
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Jul 27, 2008 17:51:07 GMT
AFAIK from seeing in a book eon's ago, the ELL tracks did indeed join to what is now the GE local tracks, I'm sure I've seen a picture somewhere, most likely in the Middleton Press East London Line Album.
Yes, the two sets of tracks you refer to are on different levels, the abondoned viaduct went up to Bishopsgate Goods which was on a similar level to Broad Street station, but started at Bethnal Green station, the ramp now partly demolished for the extension of the ELL.
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Post by antharro on Jul 27, 2008 18:20:35 GMT
I'm still not clear on this.  Taking a look at the map here, I don't see a direct link from Shoreditch to the goods yard. Looks to me like the yard is accessible from the mainline tracks, and the only place you can get to from Shoreditch is Liverpool Street. So in my mind: - After Shoreditch, the tracks ran down a ramp to join the GE local lines into Liverpool St. (That's assuming the tracks at Shoreditch are higher than the mainline, which I'm pretty sure they were.) - From the mainline, the tracks ran up to a viaduct leading to the goods yard. What was the gradient of the ramp? The picture (8th down on the same page as the map) was taken from the Shoreditch station building and doesn't seem to show a particularly long distance before the tracks would've had to merge with the mainline. If it wasn't a particularly steep ramp then presumably the height difference between the mainline and Shoreditch isn't particularly great? Is that it, or am I still way off?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2008 18:56:48 GMT
I'm still not clear on this. Taking a look at the map here, I don't see a direct link from Shoreditch to the goods yard. Looks to me like the yard is accessible from the mainline tracks, and the only place you can get to from Shoreditch is Liverpool Street. Correct. Shoreditch station was at the same level as the GE tracks into Liverpool Street (at that point) - the tracks used go straight through the bridge in the pictures on that site, to a junction with the GE lines immediately beyond (I'm not sure if they just about visible in the first picture). There was no direct rail access to anywhere other than Liverpool Street, though I think there was a wagon lift to give access to the Goods Depot (Bishopsgate - the original GER, formerly ECR, London Terminal). This was at a higher level, accessible only from Bethnal Green. Simplicticly, there were two levels: the original GE mainline 'high' level at Bethnal Green and Bishopsgate (Goods Depot); and 'low' level for the East London and Liverpool Street Stn. The 'ramp' between the two levels is Bethnal Green Bank on the existant GE main line. Shoreditch station was very much visible from the GE 'Electric' lines (southernmost pair, for local services via Stratford), but not all the others - see picture 'looking West from station building' |
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Post by cetacean on Jul 27, 2008 19:49:54 GMT
Have a look at this image, which shows the relationship between the Shoreditch station building and the line into Liverpool Street, and the new GE19 bridge on the left. The cutting where Shoreditch's platforms were has been filled in in this picture, and was where the vans are parked. Next time you're on a train into Liverpool Street, after you go around the corner by Bethnal Green station, the line descends from viaduct into cutting. Looking out of the left side of the train, there are a few bits of derelict viaduct (which took the line up to Bishopsgate), which end abruptly. Just after is the GE19 bridge, and tucked beyond it is Shoreditch station. Almost immediately go under Brick Lane, and if you're on the northernmost pair of tracks you're in a tunnel from this point almost all the way to Liverpool Street. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2008 17:52:35 GMT
Looking at Multimap Aerial View here (and also 'Birds Eye' view) may clarify things (images date from last year?, before the old GE19 bridge came down) - you'll probably want to zoom around a bit to orientate yourself - and note that not all six GE tracks can be seen at the critical point. |
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Post by antharro on Jul 29, 2008 1:58:15 GMT
Thanks everyone for taking the time to explain this. I think I'm finally getting it now! How does this sound? After Bethnal Green, there are six tracks, formed from the four from the Cambridge mainline and the four from the line to Stratford. The inner most pair of each set of four merged to formthe middle two tracks. The northern most pair (by which I mean the pair coming in from Cambridge, furthest away from Shoreditch and on the Dunbridge St side of Bethnal Green station, as shown here are the "mainline / low" lines, now used by NatEx for their Cambridge/Hertford/Stanstead Express services. These are the tracks that go into tunnel for most of the approach to Liv.St. The "middle" pair went to the Bishopsgate Goods Yard on the viaduct shown here, where the "northern" pair are already in tunnel. These are the "mainline / high" lines. (I presume these are also used by NatEx to run to Cambridge, Hertford, etc as they split in that direction after Bethnal Green). The "southern" pair came from Stratford and run to Liverpool St only. These are the tracks that the line from Shoreditch would've once merged with. These are the "electric" lines. And now the yard and viaducts are no more, the line was somewhat rebuilt so all the tracks are now "low" and run to Liv. St. Also, at some point, presumably when the ELL was converted to a tube line, the tracks were raised and remained at that level until the closure. When did this happen, and was the station building rebuilt, or was there a big staircase/lift/something to get the passengers from street level to track level? Have I got it yet? |
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Post by cetacean on Jul 29, 2008 7:00:08 GMT
After Bethnal Green, there are six tracks, formed from the four from the Cambridge mainline and the four from the line to Stratford. The inner most pair of each set of four merged to formthe middle two tracks. Correct! Correct! No. The tracks going to Bishopsgate diverged to the south a lot further east, and crossed over what's now the mainline on that viaduct. Yes, but so do the middle pair. No. The goods yards and main line to Liverpool Street were in use at the same time, though the Liverpool Street branch is indeed the later addition. No, the level of the tracks never changed, and has always been the same as the line to Liverpool Street (the route under the station building), with stairs down to the platform. Since the line closed the cutting has been filled in to allow construction of the new route. |
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Post by antharro on Jul 31, 2008 18:48:13 GMT
Hmm. On that birds eye view, the small section of remaining viaduct runs from the north east to the south west. At what point did the tracks split off from the mainline to run along the viaduct?
How was the track layout back then? Did they still merge just before Bethnal Green, or did two of the Stratford tracks branch off to run up on the viaduct, and which two? (leaving only two to join the Cambridge tracks, merge with the Shoreditch Line and run into Liverpool St).
Were there still six tracks running into Liverpool St?
So was Shoreditch (LU) on the same level as the mainline tracks, up to when it closed? I was always under the assumption that it was slightly higher...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2008 20:06:56 GMT
Hmm. On that birds eye view, the small section of remaining viaduct runs from the north east to the south west. At what point did the tracks split off from the mainline to run along the viaduct? At Bethnal Green - if you look at the aerial view and move east, you can see the ex-Stratford tracks make a distinct kink to the North. At one stage this would have been a reasonable description - at Bethnal Green the two southernmost tracks (from Stratford) went straight on to the viaduct, the other two, and the four from Cambridge went down the bank to Liverpool Street. But there were a lot of connections and other tracks, so its rather an over simplification (quite apart from changes over the years) There have been since 1891. The tracks at Shoreditch (EL/LU) were always at the same level ast he tracks into Liverpool St at that point. |
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Post by antharro on Jul 31, 2008 21:11:08 GMT
Excellent, thanks etr220! I think I've got it now!
Only question is, can you please link the bit on the map where the Stratford tracks branched off for the viaduct? Only bit I can see is right by the Grand Union canal, but surely that's too far east?
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Post by cetacean on Aug 1, 2008 9:06:38 GMT
Here, near Brady Street. You can see the line sprouts and extra section on the south side, and if you follow it west and look at the shadows, you can see it gets higher than the main line* and eventually crosses it just before Brick Lane. You can also see a spur to the southeast by Hemming Street, which went to another goods yard. This was situated above a goods yard on the ELL (scroll south a bit and you can see where that line's cutting widens), with a wagon lift between the two lines. [/li][li]
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