Northern Line Extension...

Having read the article it sounds like a page-filler by a bored hack to try and generate some local hoo-ha! Realistically, with the current loadings, there's no chance of any extension of the Northern, unless they go back to the express tubes plans or build a completely new line - all pie-in-the-sky.

I take it this is the online forum the paper quotes:

www.pottersbarforum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=249&pid=1127

Now I know my spelling isnt top notch, but I point out the constant use of 'too' instead of 'to'. Indeed, it must have been a very slow week for a paper to quote a 'my-mate-in-the-pub-said' story. Myth busted?

Quote from the other forum

"Recently there been a bit of talk about Potters Bar railway station and the changes that have been going on. Well a mate of mine works for Tfl (Transport for London) says that Kings Cross now has overcrowing problems mostly from people going on the Northren Line. The loop would start at Edgware going along the line that was planned for the Northern Heights plan so the stations would be Bushey Heath, Elstree and Brockleyhill it should be noted both the stations and the tunnel were built in the 1930s but have never been used in today's money they cost aound 1/2 Billion £s (after WW2 the Green belt rules stopped the project being finished but with the growing numbers of people living there and growing car use it could now be build) too build the inner part of the Loop would carry on too Borehamwood, South Mimms before going into a tunnel at Potters Bar station all the way too Higth Barnet. The outter part of the Loop would go too Watford (where it would meet the met Line), before going too Radeltt, London colney before joining at Potters Bar (Potters Bar station could be moved as well but I get too that latter)."

Hmmm the tunnels are flooded and under the M1 if I remember correctly! The stations were never built expect Edgware (rebuilding) tho parts of the viaduct were (the remains are still there).

A mix of alot of old plans (the original idea of the Edgeware branch going to Watford even in the 30s was still considered desirable).

I would put a Northern Line extension to Potters Bar in the same category as the Central Line extension to Stansted, and the Victoria Line extension to Bognor.

I think I've just seen a flying pig!

Extension of any of the tube lines would be a really bad idea, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the area served by any extension would not have a high population density, and so probably would not repay the money spent on the extension.

Secondly, the central part of the lines is running pretty well at capacity, so extra passengers would not be welcome.

Thirdly, tube cars are designed for short-haul services and are not suitable for long journeys. (Try going by Central to Epping and back to see what I mean.)

It is worth remembering that it took longer to get from Barnet to Moorgate by electric tube than it did by LNER steam. The citizens of Potters Bar are not going to desert their fast electric main-line trains to travel by an all-stations Underground service, whether via Cockfosters or via Barnet.

To use on of my favourite phrases: let's get real!

There's something that you haven't considered though; Not everyone will be going into the central areas from any extension.

The advantage of plugging gaps like that comes from local movements of people. There's a lot of unused capacity at the ends of lines due to the need to have sufficient capacity in the central sections. Yes reversers are used to some extent but I've still never seen a packed train at Stanmore, Edgware or H&W. The advantage of tube lines comes from the turn up and go frequencies that enable local movements. People who live in Queensbury and work in Stanmore or Wembley and Harrow etc. A friend of mine works in Watford but lives in Wembley, so will end up on the Bakerloo at some point doing just what I've been saying. I wish the Northern had reached Bushey a few years earlier as all my family lives down in Hendon and Colindale (and at one time, Finchley). I believe if a bus journey takes over 35 minutes in a bus, there's an argument for a rail route. Buses should really only be used to plug special service gaps, and as feeder services to stations.

Ignoring the desirability, whether you get to Potters Bar from Cockfosters or (worse) Barnet there is the not small problem of a rise in level of some hundreds of feet to overcome in a distance of only a couple or so miles. Huge engineering challenge for a railway.

The point I was trying to make was that the people travelling into town already do so, and short extensions to link up gaps only move local traffic from road to rail, which can easily be accommodated using existing capacity.

If said links also improve NR interchanges, you potentially further reduce traffic on the central sections, especially if the interchange is contraflow ( e.g. Totteridge/Cockfosters to New Barnet NR, with services running fast down to Finsbury/Moorgate etc. )

Take the Bakerloo extensions. They will add near enough 0% additional traffic to the central sections because they interchange with fast mainline services at H&W (and in an ideal world, Willesden J.)

If the Northern Line was extended from MHE to MHB for Thameslink interchange (and thus, you may as well carry on to Edgware), you'd also get some relief as passengers would travel down to FC then across to MHB to get much faster services to City Thameslink, London Bridge et al. Perhaps not as good as going straight to Moorgate, but then they could just take the tube to New Barnet, eh?

Brian Hardy set out the service plans in UndergrounD # 9. As a military historian I am interested that the arguably sole reason for electrification to Mill Hill East was because of the barracks.

The country was at war, so the problem was not providing employment, but rather a shortage of men and materials for civilian projects.

The Northern was extended to East Finchley on 3 July 1939, which at least gave interchange with the LNER steam trains from Finsbury Park to Edgware and Barnet. (Highgate low level did not open until 19 January 1941.)

By early 1940, work had stopped on Finsbury Park to Alex Palace and East Finchley, and on Finchley Central to Edgware. It continued on the East Finchley to Barnet section, which opened on 14 April 1940. The steam trains then terminated at East Finchley, and there was a "temporary" bus service from Finchley Central to Edgware. (This gave an interesting situation at Edgware, where passengers went to the LT station to buy an LNER train ticket to travel on a bus.)

The Story of London's Underground states that the main purpose of the extension to MHE (which opened on 18 May 1941) was to serve the Inglis Barracks. The bus service then ran from MHE to Edgware.

Incidentally, in the late 1950s it was still possible to buy an underground ticket to travel from (say) Highgate to Edgware via Finchley, and the train ticket was accepted on the 240A bus.

Found this if it's any use ??
underground-history.co.uk/northernh.php

Dazz285

Personally I don't like the idea of tube railway extension in South London-I think existing lines should be upgraded (like the ELL) by TfL. Whats the service like on the South London Line? That should become like a metro service running every 6 minutes or similar.

There is not much point in extending the Underground into south London, because of the intensive network of National Rail tracks. Indeed, that is why the Underground does not do much south of the Thames.

And, for the distances involved, tube trains would probably not be suitable.

I agree. There are quite a few deprived places in South (especially South East) London that really could really gain from better transport, and a tube that goes straight through the city centre at high frequencies is the ideal solution.
There is also a very large region in SE London with no rail access at all. Just to quote someone on the uk.transport.london newsgroup:

It frequently strikes me, when considering the geography of the terra incognita called 'South London', that there is an amazingly large region with no railway stations in the Walworth area. If you draw a line through Elephant & Castle, Kennington, Oval, Stockwell, Brixton, Loughborough Junction, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Queen's Road Peckham, South Bermondsey, Bermondsey, Borough, and back to Elephant, you have an area within which there are no other railway stations of any sort. That's a huge area, about equal to the area encircled by the Inner Ring Road, and densely populated.